Greatest SF Of All Time

[b@llhog24]

Look, basketball-reference can speak for themselves. Look it up #15 in Win Shares. You guys do know he missed some games, that should count against him in some metrics don't you think?

His PER and WS/48 are higher, but he missed 25.8% of his games. Basketball Reference in the expanded league player pages just lists one advanced stat for the leaders - it's called WIN SHARES.

Don't like it, pick it up with basketball-reference.

Bingo.

[amos1er]

He was 15th in Win Shares - I didn't say it - Win Shares said it. I don't like PER that much and rarely use it, and believe that PER did not exist in 1986 so it's unfair to use it in this particular debate with Wade v McHale.

WTF...just because it didn't exist doesn't mean that it's not applicable. Not to say that I agree with it either.

What makes WinShares to be so much more valuable than PER in your opinion?

I always feel that we should look at the entire picture, not just one stat. I tell this to the PER guys too. It should be a cumulative outlook on all stats, accomplishments, accolades, environments, opponents, teammates, era, and degree of difficulty compared to other greats. WinShares is but a cherry in one of the many pieces of pie it takes to truly rank a great player.

[bagwell368]

WOW...I might agree that he wasn't top five, but to say 15th??? Bosh 28th??? Oh my.

Do you have any other evidence other than Winshares? Or is WinShares your end all be all stat? Everyone seems to have one on here.

He missed 25.8% of his regular season games. That means he can't amass stats and wins for his team. If Wade is your binky and you don't like it, I'm sorry - I'm trying to be objective.

McHale missed 17.1% of his games in '86 and he managed to amass more goodies then Wade did.

[bagwell368]

WTF...just because it didn't exist doesn't mean that it's not applicable. Not to say that I agree with it either.

What? So there is no way to calculate PER and that's to be counted against McHale.

What makes WinShares to be so much more valuable than PER in your opinion?

PER has been ripped quite a bit here over the years, search in advanced stats for the answer.

I always feel that we should look at the entire picture, not just one stat. I tell this to the PER guys too. It should be a cumulative outlook on all stats, accomplishments, accolades, environments, opponents, teammates, era, and degree of difficulty compared to other greats. WinShares is but a cherry in one of the many pieces of pie it takes to truly rank a great player.

That's fine with me. McHale was a better percentage shooter then Wade, better rebounder, able to guard more players at a very high level than Wade could. Wade was a better passer, ball handler, and ball hawk.

You started this phase of the conversation by saying Wade > McHale.

I have now provided statistical evidence as well as eye witness accounts that this simply isn't true. It's on you, not me to prove your original claim is true.

[amos1er]

Bingo.

Derrick Rose missed half of last season, yet ESPN ranked him 5th best in the league. Do you agree with that?

[amos1er]

He missed 25.8% of his regular season games. That means he can't amass stats and wins for his team. If Wade is your binky and you don't like it, I'm sorry - I'm trying to be objective.

McHale missed 17.1% of his games in '86 and he managed to amass more goodies then Wade did.

ESPN has Rose ranked at 5th best yet he missed half of last season.

[amos1er]

What? So there is no way to calculate PER and that's to be counted against McHale.



PER has been ripped quite a bit here over the years, search in advanced stats for the answer.



That's fine with me. McHale was a better percentage shooter then Wade, better rebounder, able to guard more players at a very high level than Wade could. Wade was a better passer, ball handler, and ball hawk.

You started this phase of the conversation by saying Wade > McHale.

I have now provided statistical evidence as well as eye witness accounts that this simply isn't true. It's on you, not me to prove your original claim is true.

Where are your eye witness accounts? And how have you proven otherwise? All you did is provide their WinShare numbers. Again, how does WinShares proove that one player is better than the other. What about ppg, rpg, apg, ts% big game moments and other intangibles that don't show up on a stat sheet like the fact that Wade draws away more defenders than McHale. Again, why do you find WinShares to be so telling of a players greatness.

[amos1er]

duplicate.

[bagwell368]

Derrick Rose missed half of last season, yet ESPN ranked him 5th best in the league. Do you agree with that?

ESPN usually screws things up. I imagine that that they were using of blend of subjective perception, his recent MVP, and his partial season to place him.

If he played the whole season at the rate he played at he would not have been top 5. More like #8-12 range. This is based on last year and last year only.

[bagwell368]

Where are your eye witness accounts? And how have you proven otherwise? All you did is provide their WinShare numbers. Again, how does WinShares proove that one player is better than the other. What about ppg, rpg, apg, ts% big game moments and other intangibles that don't show up on a stat sheet like the fact that Wade draws away more defenders than McHale. Again, why do you find WinShares to be so telling of a players greatness.

Me. I probably missed two Celtic games that whole year, and saw 5 of them in person. I was also a college player, and an AAU Coach for many years. I saw Miami play every playoff game after the first round and another 15 or so.

You said Wade > McHale, and its not true by eye, nor by rebounding totals, FG%, or defense. McHale is also clearly one of the 5 greatest low post offensive players of all time. Wade certainly isn't top 5 at anything - other then all around SG ranking.

I never limited myself to just Win Shares BTW - and have mentioned other factors already. I have no idea why you are trying to pin that on me - unless it is the failure of your original claim.

Charles Barkely said McHale is the best player he ever played against BTW, and he drew a large amount of defenders. More then Parish, and maybe as much as Bird since McHale wasn't much of a passer (black hole was one of his nicknames). Didn't matter, take a good long look at his FG%'s - those were not all dunks, his most common shot was a fallaway, probably the highest % fallaway in NBA history.

[b@llhog24]

Bingo.

Derrick Rose missed half of last season, yet ESPN ranked him 5th best in the league. Do you agree with that?

Not sure what this has to do with Win shares but whatever. Did he have a top 5 season last year? No. Because of all the nagging injuries he suffered last season. Is a healthy Rose a top 5 player? Debatable, but personally I'd put Paul LeBron, Dwight, Durant above him, after that then Wade, Westbrook, Love and maybe Kobe can create a great argument against him.

[JordansBulls]

Not sure what this has to do with Win shares but whatever. Did he have a top 5 season last year? No. Because of all the nagging injuries he suffered last season. Is a healthy Rose a top 5 player? Debatable, but personally I'd put Paul LeBron, Dwight, Durant above him, after that then Wade, Westbrook, Love and maybe Kobe can create a great argument against him.

What has CP3 done that Rose hasn't?

[alexander_37]

Not a Larry Bird fan.

[Underdogz∞]

+1

+2 On the Larry Legend vote but Lebron has a lot a lot of winning and performing in big games to do to catch up to Larry Bird A LOT!

[asandhu23]

Rick Barry won a championship as the only star on Warriors.