Montreal Maroons win

[BranWingss]

Ok I'm going to briefly go over some comparisons here. I respect the Maroons alot but I don't think they should be beating my team which I feel is the best in this redraft.


Hart Trophies

Americans: 7 (Lemieux (2), Ovechkin (2), Malkin (1), Sedin (1), St. Louis (1)

Maroons: 2 (Perry (1), Thedore (1)-This was the biggest fluke season perhaps ever keep in mind


Art Ross Trophies:

Americans: 10 (Lemieux (4), Malkin (2), Ovechkin (1), D. Sedin (1), H. Sedin (2)

Thrashers: 2 (Gretzky (2))

Norris Trophy
Americans: 2 (Brian Leetch x2)
Maroons 1 (Rob Blake 1)

Conn Smythe:
Americans: 6 (Lemieux x2, Malkin x1, Richards x 1, Leetch x 1, Claude Lemieux x1 )
Maroons: 2 (Toews x 1, Zetterberg)


Selke Trophies:
Americans: 5 (Jere Lehtinen x 3, Michael Peca x 2)
Maroons: 3 (Datsyuk, )



Vezina Trophies:

Americans-2 (Belfour x 2)

Thrashers: 2 (Lundqvist x 1, Theodore x 1-This was the biggest fluke season ever keep in mind)


All NHL Teams:
Forwards:

Americans:
Kovalev-1 Second Team All NHL
M. Lemieux-3 First Team All NHL, 2 Second Team All NHL
St. Louis-1 First Team All NHL, 3 Second Team All NHL
Ovechkin- 5 First Team All NHL, 1 Second Team All NHL
Malkin-3 First Team All NHL
D. Sedin-1 First Team All NHL, 1 Second Team All NHL
H. Sedin- 2 First Team All NHL
Bertuzzi-1 First Team All NHL

Total:

16 First Team All NHL 8 Second Team All NHL

Maroons:
Gretzky 1 First Team All NHL, 3 Second Team All NHL
Selanne 2 First Team All NHL, 2 Second Team All NHL
Perry 1 First Team All NHL
Kovalchuk- 1 First Team All NHL, 1 Second Team All NHL
Bure- 1 First Team All NHL, 2 Second Team All NHL
Zetterberg-1 Second Team All NHL
Datsyuk-1 Second Team All NHL
Total: 6 First Team All NHL 10 Second Team All NHL

Defenseman
Americans:
Leetch- 2 First Team All NHL, 3 Second Team All NHL
Zubov-1 Second Team All NHL
Iafrate-1 Second Team All NHL
Campbell-1 Second Team All NHL
Total: 2 First Team All NHL, 6 Second Team All NHL

Maroons:
Blake- 1 First Team All NHL, 3 Second Team All NHL
Mike Green- 2 First Team All NHL

Total: 3 First Team All NHL, 3 Second Team All NHL

Goaltending:


Americans:
Belfour 2 First Team All NHL, 1 Second Team All NHL

Maroons:
Lundqvist 1 First Team All NHL
Thedore-1 First Team All NHL

And while my team has been criticized for being apparently soft in the past (I can get into more formal writeup later), this team is so much softer than mine. They don't have a shutdown line really (the third is the closest they have) and barely have physical players at all or even players (is Getlzaf supposed to be that guy) who use their size like Lemieux or Malkin or Ovechkin would.

On defense, they seriously don't have any shutdown dmen with Rob Blake (a guy who in his prime leaned offense definately) followed by guys who were puck movers and shot takers but not good positional phyiscal defensive players. Mike Green was routinely criticzed for that, as was Kaberle and Markov.

Redden and Jovo aren't terrible but even Jovo while being a big hitter had major positioning issues and Redden relied on Chara significantly more than the other way around.

You left off the Rocket Richard winners. Funny that you did so. The award was brought in in 1998/1999.

Rocket Richard Winners
Brooklyn - 2 (Alexander Ovechkin x2)

Montreal - 5 (Teemu Selanne, Pavel Bure x2, Ilya Kovalchuk, Corey Perry)

That's four different players for me compared to your one. That's 4 of my top 6 players being Rocket Richard winners.

You keep bringing up Jose Theodore as a fluke. I couldn't do the same for any of your players? Your arguments are always so hyprocritical.

LOL. I am not softer than you. My defense is strong. I'm much stronger in net. Lundqvist has been nominated four times in the past four seasons.

Your team has 0 two-way stars. My third line could shut down any of your lines. During HIA, I'll match my second line against your second line. How are you supossed to get the puck out of your zone when I have the best player (Bure) and Ovie AND Malkin are at the blue line cherry picking.

Redden was better than Chara in Ottawa. Yeah, Chara needed Redden more than Redden needed Chara.

Datsyuk, Z, Toews, Getzlaf are stars/superstars, even without awards. They're always up there, and are consistent.

My team is better than yours..

[jrice9]

You left off the Rocket Richard winners. Funny that you did so. The award was brought in in 1998/1999.

Rocket Richard Winners
Brooklyn - 2 (Alexander Ovechkin x2)

Montreal - 5 (Teemu Selanne, Pavel Bure x2, Ilya Kovalchuk, Corey Perry)

That's four different players for me compared to your one. That's 4 of my top 6 players being Rocket Richard winners.

Honest mistake and I'm pleased you mentioned it (intellectual honesty is very important). Only issue becomes is that while the trophy began in 1998, the criteria (most goals) long existed before that. If we take the equivalent and stretch it back Lemieux adds one as well.

The numbers tighten if we stretch the criteria top 3 as well I'm pretty sure (Cursury glance admittedly)




You keep bringing up Jose Theodore as a fluke. I couldn't do the same for any of your players? Your arguments are always so hyprocritical.

Which player? I'll gladly debate it.


None of my players posted 1 season where they doubled their PS total from their career and never approached within 33% of that total again. He also should not have won the Hart (but thats a seperate thread)

LOL. I am not softer than you. My defense is strong. I'm much stronger in net. Lundqvist has been nominated four times in the past four seasons.

You do realize that Belfour won the Vezina twice himself and was nominated I believe 4 times (I know for a fact its 3 I'm not sure about the 4th) and was named one of the NHL's top 2 goalies (All NHL) 2 more times than Lundy.

Your team has 0 two-way stars.

i'm not sure Claude Lemieux (Conn Smythe winner) agrees, neither does Bertuzzi in his prime or Malkin or Lemieux (Both tremendous in their own zones at times). Brad Richards is quite dismayed as well.

I also have a shutdown line that remains unmatched.

My third line could shut down any of your lines. During HIA, I'll match my second line against your second line. How are you supossed to get the puck out of your zone when I have the best player (Bure) and Ovie AND Malkin are at the blue line cherry picking.

Bure is not the best player on those two lines. Ovechkin and Malkin are, and Malkin doesn't really cherrypick (thats not his game).

Also I have three scoring lines that are likely to be as productive as your best one.

Redden was better than Chara in Ottawa. Yeah, Chara needed Redden more than Redden needed Chara.

What is this based on?

Datsyuk, Z, Toews, Getzlaf are stars/superstars, even without awards. They're always up there, and are consistent.

Everyone in this is a star.The question is all degrees. I'd rather my third line over yours if I'm trying to create offense. I'm talking about two of the best chemistry players ever in the twins and giving them Todd Bertuzzi (basically the perfect linemate for what they need)

[GrkGawdofWalkz]

Still like Brooklyn more Bran.

[BranWingss]

Bump. We're not finishing with this with just 3 votes (saying this as the commish - not the team in the Finals)

[RedWings13]

They don't have a shutdown line really (the third is the closest they have) and barely have physical players at all or even players (is Getlzaf supposed to be that guy) who use their size like Lemieux or Malkin or Ovechkin would.

Lol what? If Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Toews isn't a shutdown line then what is? Datsyuk has won the Selke three times is easily one of the best two way forwards ever. Zetterberg has been nominated for it before and is definitely one of the best two way forwards in the game today. Same with Toews. You're line may have more Selkes won but I'll take our line everyday. Your line is two 50 point at best players and a 90 point player. You can literally count on it to produce absolutely nothing offensively in a game with elite defensemen and goalies on every team. Our line on the other hand can not only shut down other lines, but can be dominant offensively as well. Datsyuk and Zetterberg had their best seasons together. Toews is an absolute winner. He's a guy that just wills his team to victory. I would have no problem calling him the best captain in the league today.

[RedWings13]

Also I have three scoring lines that are likely to be as productive as your best one.

I would like to see you try and back this up.

[jrice9]

My third line has 3 guys who led the NHL in ppg during their primes, his first line has 1

[RedWings13]

My third line has 3 guys who led the NHL in ppg during their primes, his first line has 1

So because they led the league in points for that year they're automatically better than a player that didn't lead the league in points during their best year?

[BranWingss]

Which player? I'll gladly debate it.

Well I mean, Bert's peak really wasn't that long. .. You're making it sound like he's better than Z, Pav, etc.

None of my players posted 1 season where they doubled their PS total from their career and never approached within 33% of that total again. He also should not have won the Hart (but thats a seperate thread)

Still have to give some credit to Jose Theodore during that legendary season.



You do realize that Belfour won the Vezina twice himself and was nominated I believe 4 times (I know for a fact its 3 I'm not sure about the 4th) and was named one of the NHL's top 2 goalies (All NHL) 2 more times than Lundy.

I realize that. Let me ask you though, who would you rather build from? I'd take Henrik Lundqvist. His peak vs Belfour's was pretty close. Give me Lundqvist. More consistent.


i'm not sure Claude Lemieux (Conn Smythe winner) agrees, neither does Bertuzzi in his prime or Malkin or Lemieux (Both tremendous in their own zones at times). Brad Richards is quite dismayed as well.

Malkin and Lemieux were tremendous in their own zones? What? Please explain this.. more so Malkin. I've watched a lot of Malkin. He seems to float.

I also have a shutdown line that remains unmatched.

Except we have one too.. and it can do more.


Bure is not the best player on those two lines. Ovechkin and Malkin are, and Malkin doesn't really cherrypick (thats not his game).

His offensive peak and consistency puts him over Malkin for sure. Possibly Ovie.

Also I have three scoring lines that are likely to be as productive as your best one.






What is this based on?

The decision. Watching them play. Redden was clearly the better player at the time, and for a longer period.

Everyone in this is a star.The question is all degrees. I'd rather my third line over yours if I'm trying to create offense. I'm talking about two of the best chemistry players ever in the twins and giving them Todd Bertuzzi (basically the perfect linemate for what they need)

This is where you're dead wrong. Who's the best player from either line? Pavel Datsyuk. Your line is straight up offense. Oh yeah, Dats and Z were considered to be the #2 pair for chemistry behind those two. We're MUCH faster, have the best player, and the two-way game. My third line is better.



Then add in the fact that MY FOURTH LINE LOOKS LIKE A TOP SIX LINE. IT'S STACKED.

[Da Jam Hammer]

I went back and fourth here. Both good teams. I would probably have made the lines a bit different on both sides but I guess that's what makes this interesting. I like Jrice's D a bit more, but I like the look of Bran's offense. While I would have broken up that Datsyuk line, it's hard to imagine that line letting whoever they match up against score.

The top lines are gonna both do damage, but I like the balance of Bran's a bit more. Gretz and Teemu looks great to me, and Perry will provide a whole lot of size and grit.

Even though I don't like Getzlaf in the middle of that second line, Bure and Kovalchuk will be instant offense. I don't see either second line controlling a game, but goals will be scored.

Obviously both third lines are ridiculous but Datsyuk, Toews, and Zetterberg have everything that the Sedins and Bertuzzi don't have with basically the same upside: defensive ability, grit (Bert has some, but should have more), championships... you get the idea. Jrice's 4th line is more.... 4th liney, but Bran's got some inredible upside with his and I'm just gonna assume that this is something like real hockey in that some players could maybe get time on the 3rd or 2nd line from time to time.

Great goaltending both ways.

[IAmARanger18]

I'm giving my vote to Montreal here.

[Da Jam Hammer]

Also, just to address the issue of being recruited to vote, because I know it can raise some eyebrows:

This is not the first time that I have been asked to vote in this redraft, nor is it the first time that I have voted. I believe I have voted for both of these teams at different times during the draft. Even now, there are not a ton of votes, so I don't think it is fair to say that GMs are simply asking people to vote in hopes of getting votes for their team. I think it's a matter of trying to get as many votes from veteran posters as possible.