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View Poll Results: Who would you pick going forward? Money aside

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  • Adrian Gonzalez

    30 69.77%
  • Allen Craig

    13 30.23%
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  1. #31
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    Because Todd Frazier was barely an .800 OPS bat in the minors throughout his career? That's why it's laughable. Do you not understand sample size?

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  2. #32
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    are you guys going to count the fact that craig cant ever stay healthy?

    gonzo had off year big deal . he is still way better . and he actually plays most games instead of being injured left and right

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halo4life View Post
    are you guys going to count the fact that craig cant ever stay healthy?

    gonzo had off year big deal . he is still way better . and he actually plays most games instead of being injured left and right
    He can't ever stay healthy?

    He has had knee problems, which he had knee surgery this off-season for.

    He had a broken knee cap last season.

    He has always battled minor injuries.

    But games played/games possible
    2007 - 119/140
    2008 - 129/140
    2009 - 126/144
    2010 - 127/144
    2011 - 102/177 (playoffs)
    2012 - 86/128
    Totals - 689/873 or 79% (better than league average for a starter btw)

    He basically plays as often as Josh Willingham, and while he is playing through an injury currently, he has shown he can stay on the field this season again like he could from 07-10, it was just an injury plagued 2011 for him.

    He is going to have enough PA to qualify for the batting title this season.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    Because Todd Frazier was barely an .800 OPS bat in the minors throughout his career? That's why it's laughable. Do you not understand sample size?
    Yes, clearly the sample size isn't there and for the rest of the year I'd take Albert Pujols over Todd Frazier. For the rest of both of their careers I'd take Todd Frazier.

  5. #35
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    Craig is mediocre with the glove and I don't see him getting any better as he gets to 30 years old. No doubt Craig is the better hitter, however, overall, it's a tough call moving forward. I probably choose AGon here.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wade>Kobe View Post
    Craig is mediocre with the glove and I don't see him getting any better as he gets to 30 years old. No doubt Craig is the better hitter, however, overall, it's a tough call moving forward. I probably choose AGon here.
    Craig is actually an outfielder though. He plays outfield better than AGon does.

  7. #37
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    Allen Craig now 18 PA short of qualifying for the batting title.

    He is hitting cleanup every night, he should reach it without issue unless he gets hurt again

  8. #38
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    Allen Craig has a .350 BABIP. He's only 2 years younger than Gonzalez. You have to be kidding me. Even if you're going on age, it's not that big of a difference. If we're forgetting about contracts, Gonzalez is the better hitter.

    Craig has amounted just over one season's worth of PAs at the major league level and he's 28. You really think he's the better hitter? I say small sample size is small.
    Last edited by terencem; 08-28-2012 at 02:24 PM.

  9. #39
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    Adrian Gonzalez
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by terencem View Post
    Allen Craig has a .350 BABIP. He's only 2 years younger than Gonzalez. You have to be kidding me. Even if you're going on age, it's not that big of a difference. If we're forgetting about contracts, Gonzalez is the better hitter.

    Craig has amounted just over one season's worth of PAs at the major league level and he's 28. You really think he's the better hitter? I say small sample size is small.
    Maybe his minor league numbers are not enough to be considered?

    And Adrian Gonzalez is sporting a higher babip over the last two seasons (.356 - .348) and it's only because of how hard that Craig hits the ball that he has a higher babip.

    Craig was blocked for two years by Pujols and Holliday. That's not exactly his fault.

    This isn't an issue of small sample size, Craig is a very polished, professional hitter.



    I might be a bit of a homer here, but the numbers easily support me. So it's not like I'm going out on a limb to defend him here.

  11. #41
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    You are being a homer, in the regard that you don't accept people being skeptical of 600 PA's as worthy of making him an elite, upper tier player.

    Gonzalez has over 70% of the votes, and to be honest that seems low to me. I'd have thought Craig would only have a handful of votes.

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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    You are being a homer, in the regard that you don't accept people being skeptical of 600 PA's as worthy of making him an elite, upper tier player.

    Gonzalez has over 70% of the votes, and to be honest that seems low to me. I'd have thought Craig would only have a handful of votes.
    It's hard to say I'm being a homer when you look at the differences in the two players 2012 season thus far when the evaluation is 'who would you pick going forward'. And that the player with the better 2012 is also two years younger and plays more positions.

    Also, I haven't picked Craig, I said in the beginning I don't know who I would choose. But I am defending Craig all over the place because people continue to not realize what he has done.

    Recall the Mark Trumbo thread? It was 'Mark Trumbo obviously'. But Craig is spanking him, Craig was dismissed because of his PA there too.

    And people are not being skeptical of the 600 PA. They are ignoring what he has done because he only has 600 big league PA. That is different.

  13. #43
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    Comparing this to the Trumbo thread is ridiculous. Trumbo is a similar type of player, a late blooming prospect. Gonzalez was an elite prospect who became a superstar.

    And no one's "ignoring" him, we're saying that it's not enough to take him over an elite player. If the thread was "Can Allen Craig be a very good player going forwards?" I'm sure everyone would say he probably can be. The question is asking people to choose between two players, one being an elite, proven superstar, the other being a 28 year old with 600 PA's. It's not really close, if that's the question.

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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    Comparing this to the Trumbo thread is ridiculous. Trumbo is a similar type of player, a late blooming prospect. Gonzalez was an elite prospect who became a superstar.

    And no one's "ignoring" him, we're saying that it's not enough to take him over an elite player. If the thread was "Can Allen Craig be a very good player going forwards?" I'm sure everyone would say he probably can be. The question is asking people to choose between two players, one being an elite, proven superstar, the other being a 28 year old with 600 PA's. It's not really close, if that's the question.
    You are ignoring that Gonzalez has not played well this season and even Gonzalez's career best season isn't as good as Allen Craig has played over his last 600 PA.

    It isn't ridiculous. Gonzalez may very well no longer be an elite superstar. I assume he will continue to play at his career average, better than this year, not as good as last year. Craig we don't know if he is a .400 wOBA hitter or not, but if he is, that would make him better than A-Gone. And that may not be a stretch for Craig, considering he is a .392 wOBA over his entire professional career (minors included), he might be.


    Adrian Gonzalez is a career .372 wOBA, 133 wRC+ (worse if we include his minor league career, but that was so long ago it shouldn't count for him). Is it safe to assume he will hit like that the rest of his career? 2-4 years more of peak offense left possibly and then his decline? I'd say it's reasonable to think he will do that.

    Allen Craig is a career .392 wOBA, 154 wRC+ (and .387 wOBA, 147 wRC+ in the majors) in his professional career. Is it safe to assume he can keep up that production? Even a 10% regression keeps him a better hitter than Adrian over his career average.

    You can't just throw out what Craig has done over small sample size. 600 PA isn't that small of a sample size, and he has another 2200 minor league PA where he was doing the same thing.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 08-28-2012 at 06:13 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    You are ignoring that Gonzalez has not played well this season and even Gonzalez's career best season isn't as good as Allen Craig has played over his last 600 PA.

    It isn't ridiculous. Gonzalez may very well no longer be an elite superstar. I assume he will continue to play at his career average, better than this year, not as good as last year. Craig we don't know if he is a .400 wOBA hitter or not, but if he is, that would make him better than A-Gone. And that may not be a stretch for Craig, considering he is a .392 wOBA over his entire professional career (minors included), he might be.
    Wrong

    Allen Craig 2011-2012 - .318/.373/.574, 156 OPS+, 5.9 WAR

    Adrian Gonzalez 2009 - .277/.407/.551, 162 OPS+, 6.2 WAR
    Adrian Gonzalez 2011 - .338/.410/.548, 153 OPS+, 6.6 WAR

    That's the whole ****ing point. We don't know. We do know that Gonzalez is most likely still an elite bat. The odds that a player of Gonzalez's stature just declined in one year is much lower than that a 28 year old who hasn't played a full season is actually a .400 wOBA hitter.

    And why do you keep sourcing his MiLB numbers? He was 26 playing 22 year olds and he was kicking ***. No ****. So does Jerry Sands, Scott Van Slyke and countless prospects that are playing inferior, less developed competition.
    Last edited by VRP723; 08-28-2012 at 06:18 PM.

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