Bumgarner vs Sale

[ichitownclowni]

Mad Bum

LA you really do not want Sale to surpass Kershaw

[WadeKobe]

This sounds hypocritical. You say correct judgment involves long term success and that Sale is the obvious choice if healthy, yet Bumgarner has had more long term success.

It doesn't sound hypocritical at all. Both have been pitching more than a couple of games. Thus, their full resumes are the best standard... not a couple of games. That's what I said. Making a decision based off of a couple of games is nonsense. That's what I said.

Sale may have had a better year, but this is his first year starting. Bumgarner was better than Sale his first year in the league and has been proven durable especially through the playoffs something Sale has yet to prove.

Bumgarner was not better than Sale his first full year as a starter. Their park and league adjusted numbers are nearly identical, -xFIP is almost the same and Sale's -ERA is actually much better than Bumgarner's first year, despite Bumgarner's raw ERA being better.

Sale hasn't proven a problem with his health easier. It seems logical to not punish or reward either for "durability."

Both of these guys are very good and very young. I don't think anyone can say definitively who'll be better but I'd rather have the guy who's more proven. Sale hasn't even had a 200 inning yet.

(1) He's pitched one season. How are you going to say "he hasn't even done [x]
yet" when he's only had one season to do it?

(2) That is nonsense in and of itself. That is an arbitrary endpoint. What difference is 8 innings? It is one start, which at best could account for one whole win for the team. Arbitrary endpoints ruin sports.

Let's be honest. At the end of the day you're not picking Bum for any of the reasons you say. You're picking him because you're a Giants fan. That is all.

[LASportsFan1996]

LA you really do not want Sale to surpass Kershaw

He never will so ...

[giantspwn]

It doesn't sound hypocritical at all. Both have been pitching more than a couple of games. Thus, their full resumes are the best standard... not a couple of games. That's what I said. Making a decision based off of a couple of games is nonsense. That's what I said.



Bumgarner was not better than Sale his first full year as a starter. Their park and league adjusted numbers are nearly identical, -xFIP is almost the same and Sale's -ERA is actually much better than Bumgarner's first year, despite Bumgarner's raw ERA being better.

Sale hasn't proven a problem with his health easier. It seems logical to not punish or reward either for "durability."



(1) He's pitched one season. How are you going to say "he hasn't even done [x]
yet" when he's only had one season to do it?

(2) That is nonsense in and of itself. That is an arbitrary endpoint. What difference is 8 innings? It is one start, which at best could account for one whole win for the team. Arbitrary endpoints ruin sports.

Let's be honest. At the end of the day you're not picking Bum for any of the reasons you say. You're picking him because you're a Giants fan. That is all.

Dude, I'm not even picking Bumgarner outright, I'm just saying if I had to choose, I'd go with Bumgarner because he's been a starter 3 years in the league with a much more established resume. How many first year starters converted from reliever have one good year and then flame out. Your the one saying this is an easy choice.

Bumgarner first year: xFIP 3.10/ 5.3 WAR
Sale first year: xFIP 3.24 /4.9 WAR

Nearly identical, but Bumgarner was still slightly better. Even if you find a way to justify Sale as being better, how are you able to determine this as an easy choice from your previous post?

Bumgarner has thrown over 500 innings as a starter + postseason starts. He's been proven durable. Sale just has one year (192 innings). Usually around the 200 inning mark, a pitcher's durability is questioned. Once Sale hit 160 innings this year, his numbers started taking a hit.

All I'm saying is lets see him have another good year before crowning him a saint.

[YoungStuna]

Sale has better stuff than Mad Bum. If healthy, he will be better imo.

[DaSox_05]

Dude, I'm not even picking Bumgarner outright, I'm just saying if I had to choose, I'd go with Bumgarner because he's been a starter 3 years in the league with a much more established resume. How many first year starters converted from reliever have one good year and then flame out. Your the one saying this is an easy choice.

Bumgarner first year: xFIP 3.10/ 5.3 WAR
Sale first year: xFIP 3.24 /4.9 WAR

Nearly identical, but Bumgarner was still slightly better. Even if you find a way to justify Sale as being better, how are you able to determine this as an easy choice from your previous post?

Bumgarner has thrown over 500 innings as a starter + postseason starts. He's been proven durable. Sale just has one year (192 innings). Usually around the 200 inning mark, a pitcher's durability is questioned. Once Sale hit 160 innings this year, his numbers started taking a hit.

All I'm saying is lets see him have another good year before crowning him a saint.

Sale pitches in the AL and has to face the DH AND pitches in a hitter friendly park. If Sale pitched in AT&T his numbers would even be better.

[leftymo]

Madbum 2 world series rings, 2-0 in the world series.

Sale not close.


The better pitching is in the NL. I think the last three years have proven this. The best the AL has to offer is Verlander, and he got lit up pretty good by the NL allstars and in the world series...

So if you adjust for league, Bumgarner is even better. He shut down the mighty Tigers and Rangers in the WS...

[leftymo]

pitch 200 IP and then get back to me...

[giants73756]

It's very close. Sale would have been my choice if he hadn't tailed off in the second half of this year. I realize Bumgarner had a bad last month, but he has already put up a few great seasons. I'd like to see another full season from Sale to get more of an idea what to expect from him. Both are still very young and have room for improvement. It's easy to forget that Bumgarner is younger than Sale, since (at least to me) it's seemed like he's been around so long.

[YoungStuna]

Sale pitches in the AL and has to face the DH AND pitches in a hitter friendly park. If Sale pitched in AT&T his numbers would even be better.

This.

[DaSox_05]

Madbum 2 world series rings, 2-0 in the world series.

Sale not close.


The better pitching is in the NL. I think the last three years have proven this. The best the AL has to offer is Verlander, and he got lit up pretty good by the NL allstars and in the world series...

So if you adjust for league, Bumgarner is even better. He shut down the mighty Tigers and Rangers in the WS...

Baseball is a TEAM sport.

pitch 200 IP and then get back to me...

It was Sale's first year being a starting pitcher. The White Sox are not going to let him throw 200 innings.

[MetsFanatic19]

I'll take Sale, but not by much at all. Both have impressive career's ahead of them.

[Fly]

Sale's stuff is better IMO, but MadBum has obviously been better so far. I voted Bum.

[leftymo]

Baseball is a TEAM sport.



It was Sale's first year being a starting pitcher. The White Sox are not going to let him throw 200 innings.

So Bumgarner is younger and more established. This was his 2nd 200 IP season.

It is a team sport. But not when you go 15 IP with 5 H allowed 0 ER and 14 K's... in the world series. And it wasn't a bad offense, they were the mighty Rangers & Tigers, one of which in their own park!

Hype machine is with Sale... productivity over a longer period of time including post-season success goes to Bum.

[DaSox_05]

So Bumgarner is younger and more established. This was his 2nd 200 IP season.

It is a team sport. But not when you go 15 IP with 5 H allowed 0 ER and 14 K's... in the world series. And it wasn't a bad offense, they were the mighty Rangers & Tigers, one of which in their own park!

Hype machine is with Sale... productivity over a longer period of time including post-season success goes to Bum.

Actually Sale is younger so you are wrong there.

Again you missed the point on the team sport. I can take 2 of Sale's random starts and say its better. The TEAM got to the World Series not just Bumgarner.

Sale xFIP this year in his FIRST season starting was 3.24. Bumgarner's was 3.85. I am not taking anything away from Bum he is a very good young starting pitcher, who has had great success. But Sale has the better stuff and is the better pitcher. Bum has the better track record so far because he has been starting longer.