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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    Yes we are free to chose a third party, but it is against the minorities interest to do so. I votew for a green, or a member of the libertarians, then essentially my vote doesn't get counted in the two horse race, because lets face it the way are system works it really only has two horses. If representative votes were national and say the greens and some far right party each got 5% of the vote they would get 5% of the seats. This causes other problems, but it would make the make up of congress more representative then the present two party system and would encourage you to vote for the party that most accurately reflects your views rather than the candidate you dislike least out of the dem or the repub.

    Essentially today the system is set up to say you are free to vote for a third party, but that's the same as you are free to have your vote not counted.
    I am not disputing this. What I'm saying is that we, the voters, are responsible for this. The electorate has allowed for a 2-party split based on the way that they vote.

    2 party systems are the natural order of things, it seems like. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. It only took one presidential term and one issue (The Whiskey Rebellion/tax protest) to have a 2-party system take a stranglehold on our country. It's the way things work. I agree that that's the case. I'm just saying that the electorate is responsible for this.

    You bring up some good points about proportional representation. But that's just another way to define representation. For me, representation means elected officials being directly elected by a plurality of free voters. That's why I've been saying that we still have representation in this literal sense, based on a strong sense of personal responsibility.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norwegian View Post
    I am not disputing this. What I'm saying is that we, the voters, are responsible for this. The electorate has allowed for a 2-party split based on the way that they vote.

    2 party systems are the natural order of things, it seems like. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. It only took one presidential term and one issue (The Whiskey Rebellion/tax protest) to have a 2-party system take a stranglehold on our country. It's the way things work. I agree that that's the case. I'm just saying that the electorate is responsible for this.

    You bring up some good points about proportional representation. But that's just another way to define representation. For me, representation means elected officials being directly elected by a plurality of free voters. That's why I've been saying that we still have representation in this literal sense, based on a strong sense of personal responsibility.
    We the voters are not responsible for it. The set of of the constitution is responsible for it. The voters, have a choice between not being heard and voting for the lesser of two evils but having it count. I don't see how the voters are responsible for it given that choice? You yourself mentioned something that happened in 1791 that led to the two party stranglehold. How many of those voters are around today? How can one elect someone who wants to change the two party system when the only people who can get elected are from the two parties?

    Representative in a literal sense would mean the politicians stand in for the diversity of opinion of the American people. I don't know how anyone could argue that is true.


    Getting back to the issue of free choice.... it's not free. It's like asking a kid which would you like to eat more aspargus or brussell sprouts? Which would you rather have a punch in the face or a pipe to the knee caps? That's not free choice.

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  3. #18
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    (1) A 3rd party nominee will get major media blackout just like all the others outside of the standard blue and red guidelines. Just look at Ron Paul. The media essentially put a blackout on his attempt at getting the Republican ticket.

    (2) They can't win enough Electoral votes to get elected.... Ross Perot got 19% of the popular vote in 1992 and yet didn't win a single Electoral vote. And when he ran again in 1996 they didn't allow him at the debates. The same for Ralph Nader. Even though the majority of Americans felt they should have been allowed to debate.

    Even if you have a scenario where he steals enough states that none of the nominees have the amount of electoral votes to be elected he won't get chosen as the President of the United States because it would be up to other Republican and Democratic leaders in the House.

    (3) They have to get so much initial support and pay so many fees just to get on the ticket in each state and also to debate.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcityroller View Post
    (1) A 3rd party nominee will get major media blackout just like all the others outside of the standard blue and red guidelines. Just look at Ron Paul. The media essentially put a blackout on his attempt at getting the Republican ticket.

    (2) They can't win enough Electoral votes to get elected.... Ross Perot got 19% of the popular vote in 1992 and yet didn't win a single Electoral vote. And when he ran again in 1996 they didn't allow him at the debates. The same for Ralph Nader. Even though the majority of Americans felt they should have been allowed to debate.

    Even if you have a scenario where he steals enough states that none of the nominees have the amount of electoral votes to be elected he won't get chosen as the President of the United States because it would be up to other Republican and Democratic leaders in the House.

    (3) They have to get so much initial support and pay so many fees just to get on the ticket in each state and also to debate.
    Perot didn't have to steal any votes, I gave it willingly.

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  5. #20
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    I guess I'm just more critical of the voters. I have a notion of responsibility falling on them rather than on the variables that promote the two party system.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norwegian View Post
    I guess I'm just more critical of the voters. I have a notion of responsibility falling on them rather than on the variables that promote the two party system.
    That's a healthy attitude, responsibility lies with everyone. It's about owning the good things that happen as well as the bad,

    Too bad that more politicians didn't have that attitude towards things....
    " I have only three rules, be on time, pay attention, and play like hell on Sunday"

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  7. #22
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    I read somewhere that the act of political representation is basically a conflict of interest?

    Anyone know where that is from?
    " I have only three rules, be on time, pay attention, and play like hell on Sunday"

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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by corralski View Post
    I read somewhere that the act of political representation is basically a conflict of interest?

    Anyone know where that is from?
    I Googled it and the link to this thread was the 2nd link. But I didn't see anything substantive come up from the search.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    I Googled it and the link to this thread was the 2nd link. But I didn't see anything substantive come up from the search.
    Thanks,I did the same thing but I think I might have been too specific on the search, or I might not have remembered the quote correctly....
    " I have only three rules, be on time, pay attention, and play like hell on Sunday"

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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by corralski View Post
    Thanks,I did the same thing but I think I might have been too specific on the search, or I might not have remembered the quote correctly....
    I'm not sure if what you heard meant the same thing as what I'm thinking of. But the first thing that comes to mind is whether the politician represents your view (ie because you vote for them) or their views get represented through your votes (ie because you vote for them, then you must agree with them).
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  11. #26
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    The context in which I remembered it was there was no way that a representative could adequately represent a district of constituents because everyone had different concerns, there by creating conflict of interest....
    " I have only three rules, be on time, pay attention, and play like hell on Sunday"

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  12. #27
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    I agree with flips, I'd be much more in favor of a system closer to a true Parliament where multiple parties could focus on narrower issues. Particularly with the Republican Party, where there are a lot of traditionally opposed viewpoints, they're all being squeezed together. Remember, Romney was considered the most conservative option in '08. Now he's being criticized as not being conservative *enough* to ignite the base.

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