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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hustla23 View Post
    The thing is the people who like to delve into stats don't entirely discredit watching the games for yourself. Guys like Hollinger and Bill James watch more basketball than probably everyone on this forum combined.

    What stats do is provide a medium for objective discourse as well as a means to quantify player production.

    Like I was mentioning to Anji, if two people are discussing something and have only their opinions to fall back on, where is this conversation going to go? There's no way to construct an argument that's based on anything that's objective in this case.

    That's where stats come into play. And they definitely hold a real, valuable meaning.

    And like any person who entertains himself with statistics, I admit that they're not the only means towards appreciating or viewing the game. But they do help to describe it in ways that we can't see with our own prejudiced eyes.

    And as a last point, why is there all this stigma towards advanced stats anyway? Sure, they weren't around however many years ago. But computers and cell phones weren't around however many years back either and people went about their business just fine. But that doesn't mean that we should chuck them for that sole reason. Anything that serves to advance a particular field is noteworthy, in my opinion.
    You can argue all you want about objective stats and say who is .2 higher in this or .02 better at that. But when you extrapolate this to mean that someone is a great player or not or even a better player than another, then you are stepping over the bounds of logic using objective numbers to back up subjective opinions.

    This blurring of the lines between the statistic and what it means in literal terms verses the act it is trying to best represent is flawed. It is valid to say someone is statistically better than another. But it is invalid to then say that they are better than the other because of a statistic. There is so much more to the story than that which statistic is meant to represent. If you do so, you are guilty of defining a forest by its single tree and/or the attributes of few trees that you select. Rather than seeing the forest as a much more complex eco-system encompassing the trees, as well as, the space around, below and between them. Not to mention the other plants and animals living amongst them.

    To quote David Friedman, "A "stat guru" thinks that a team of five Tyson Chandlers would be unbeatable because such a team would shoot almost .700 from the field while hardly allowing the opposition to get off a good shot; it never occurs to the "stat guru" that a team of five Tyson Chandlers would not be able to dribble the ball up the court without getting it stolen and even if the Chandler Five somehow managed to get the ball into a half court set that group would not be able to create the point blank shots that enable the real Chandler to have such a high field goal percentage. ..."

    Life does not exist in a vacuum all else is not equal. Advanced Statistics, however, do and that is where they fall short.

    In the end, as I mentioned before the only statistic I will care about is how many W's we have and how much fun it was watching us get those Ws.


    If you don't understand what I mean see the formula below:

    ((Amount of Joy)* Playoff Wins * # of Championships/ Number of times cheered) * # of beers drunk / % of trash talking
    Last edited by oballers; 08-07-2012 at 05:15 AM.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by aNYer View Post
    Its far from very few fans. You can look back and see posters call other posters idiots and haters. And no, not everyone knows this, because even now people are saying it doesn't matter and your just a hater.
    Is it fair to say that someone who calls Melo a “POS scumbag” is a hater? What about someone that says that Melo can do “NO right” in his eyes? Is it fair to say that that poster is a Melo hater? Because those comments have come from two of the most vocal anti-Melo posters we have in here.

    Look, I agree that the word “hater” is thrown around wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much. (As is the word “homer”.) Just because you’re a fan of someone doesn’t make you a homer, and just because you’re a critic of someone doesn’t make you a hater. I think it is just a way to marginalize any comments made by the other "side" 'Oh, I don't have to listen to you, you're nothing but a hater...Oh, I don't have to listen to you, you're nothing but a homer.'

    But, having said that, I think it is disingenuous to pretend that there aren’t people in here that never give Melo a leg to stand on. (Not saying you are doing this, just talking in general.) The man truly does have “haters”.

    Personally, I think he falls in the 10-12 range. He obviously has areas in which to improve, but I am very confident in Carmelo leading our team going forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrandedCub View Post
    The problem is that some of you guys who constantly bash Melo think that those of us who don't think he is the worlds greatest. There are very very few posters who actually believe that. We think he is a very good offensive player and we believe that he doesn't deserve some of the random BS that a lot of fans give him. Some of you go out of your way to bash him. Every word out of your mouth is negative in regards to him.

    Don't confuse us defending him/saying good things about him as thinking he is the best to play to ever play the game.
    This.

    A thousand times, this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hustla23 View Post
    and the other "side" absolutely refuses to do the same thing and resorts to name calling and hyperbolic banter.
    Is throwing out phrases like “delusional fanboys” or words like “ignorant” and “morons” when talking about Melo fans considered name calling, or is it only name calling when directed towards his critics?

    Both “sides” have their civil and logical posters, just as both “sides” have their name callers and those that are prone to hyperbolic banter.


    Hopelessly Devoted

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by triple5real View Post
    Lol Did he offer you ice cream and then said SIKE when you was going to take it ! Lol Dude the hate is not that serious lol
    cuz i give my opinion i hate him i like melo but i just want the best for the knicks like a fan should is that wrong did i say something wrong

  4. #124
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    I've said this for many years, people over complicate the game. That is exactly what you are doing. A good response would be to say I don't understand, but I completely understand player efficiency rating. Melo has his flaws, but the reality is the guy's stats speak for themselves. He contributes on the offensive end more than any other player in the game. He certainly lacks in defense and getting others involved, but the guy is the best individual scorer in the game. He can score on every position the other team throws at him and he can get his shot from anywhere on the court. All those numbers do is try to discredit and overcomplicate his achievement. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I am too. My opinion is that your first post is total BS!

    What I don't get is that for all Melo does, people tend to want to criticize his shortcomings. No one does that with Chandler. I mean the guy is a beast on defense, but truthfully, his offense is mediocre at best. He scores a high perentage because all he does is basically dunk but you don't see anyone throwing him to the wolves about how he needs to develop a jump shot. People tend to focus on what Chandler does well which clearly outweighs what he does poorly. The same can be said for Melo, but he rarely gets the credit. Melo's strengths clearly outweight his weaknesses.
    Last edited by NYNIKS; 08-07-2012 at 05:56 AM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by kartyea View Post
    You have not idea what your talking about. One man doesn't win a chip a whole team does and everyone one keeps screaming melo this melo that melo doesn't makes teammates better, thats bs. Teammates has got to hit shots. The guys is a good passer, and a willing one at that. A star is only as good as their teammates and the fact of their matter is he hasn't had many. Melo carried Denver simce his rookie year he had a good team one time and what happens their next year they don't even try to get better. They guys is one of they top 5 basketball players in they world.

    And your right results matter and he came to a team that won 16 games the year before and brought them to them playoffs every year he's been there. Then he came to a team whole hasn't been to them playoffs ima years and got them there his first two seasons without a proper supporting cast.
    he doesn't but he can score he is good passer i never questioned melo his ability to lead his team to playoffs i have question his shot selection ,proper supporting cast please melo/amare/Chandler is pretty good to me, it was coach that was problem.i don't care what he did on Denver do i care no he is on denver or on the knicks he just had the worst year of his career and i think melo is going to great this season but knicks fans act like he is a top 5 player.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by oballers View Post
    You can argue all you want about objective stats and say who is .2 higher in this or .02 better at that. But when you extrapolate this to mean that someone is a great player or not or even a better player than another, then you are stepping over the bounds of logic using objective numbers to back up subjective opinions.

    This blurring of the lines between the statistic and what it means in literal terms verses the act it is trying to best represent is flawed. It is valid to say someone is statistically better than another. But it is invalid to then say that they are better than the other because of a statistic. There is so much more to the story than that which statistic is meant to represent. If you do so, you are guilty of defining a forest by its single tree and/or the attributes of few trees that you select. Rather than seeing the forest as a much more complex eco-system encompassing the trees, as well as, the space around, below and between them. Not to mention the other plants and animals living amongst them.

    To quote David Friedman, "A "stat guru" thinks that a team of five Tyson Chandlers would be unbeatable because such a team would shoot almost .700 from the field while hardly allowing the opposition to get off a good shot; it never occurs to the "stat guru" that a team of five Tyson Chandlers would not be able to dribble the ball up the court without getting it stolen and even if the Chandler Five somehow managed to get the ball into a half court set that group would not be able to create the point blank shots that enable the real Chandler to have such a high field goal percentage. ..."

    Life does not exist in a vacuum all else is not equal. Advanced Statistics, however, do and that is where they fall short.

    In the end, as I mentioned before the only statistic I will care about is how many W's we have and how much fun it was watching us get those Ws.


    If you don't understand what I mean see the formula below:

    ((Amount of Joy)* Playoff Wins * # of Championships/ Number of times cheered) * # of beers drunk / % of trash talking
    You sir have become my new sig
    Video of Carmelo Anthony first time in the Barclays center http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZIIQmQ2qRA



    Quote Originally Posted by oballers View Post
    the only statistic I will care about is how many W's we have and how much fun it was watching us get those Ws.

    If you don't understand what I mean see the formula below:

    ((Amount of Joy)* Playoff Wins * # of Championships/ Number of times cheered) * # of beers drunk / % of trash talking

  7. #127
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    lmao this has got to be the funniest thread i've ever read some herb pulling up advanced stats about melo and this one got me more then anyone the teams +1 with him on the bench lmao what a clown how can you say this isn't a bait thread when you say melo isn't a leader yo i can't even comment on how dumb you sound please name me not 15 but atleast 9 people better then melo dude is a beast and has no help on his team and still gets us in the playoffs where he gets even less help i hope you stick your advance stats up your *** when melo has a career year this season
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Quote Originally Posted by XpLiCiTT View Post
    Yes, that's right everyone, according to me he is the "Lebran" James of Philadelphia, and will never rest. You heard it here first, exactly what I said.
    He's talking about Evan Turner
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8V_ww6ZP_k

  8. #128
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    IM SORRY I HAD TO DO IT
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Quote Originally Posted by XpLiCiTT View Post
    Yes, that's right everyone, according to me he is the "Lebran" James of Philadelphia, and will never rest. You heard it here first, exactly what I said.
    He's talking about Evan Turner
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8V_ww6ZP_k

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by roshan3ai View Post
    One stat I've seen that people have great trouble refuting.

    Why is the team 1 point better with Melo off the floor?
    I already addressed this but I guess you don't read. +/- is not a predictor of individual play it is a team stat #1 and really is only somewhat useful for considering which combinations of players play well together. I honestly don't think you understand the statistics at all. I think you went and subjectively chose the year to look at and comparison group and assumed that it applies to Melos career. I also don't think you understand the limitations of advanced basketball statistics. You need to read more. Unless you are saying that last year melo was offensively the 10th or so most efficient of the star players ok that is what you showed but why are you and others acting like this is the word and there is no interpretation or confounding factors that effect these numbers as well.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hustla23 View Post
    Stats are limited in what they can do as are most things.

    You'll be surprised to know that some people use advanced stats to argue that Carmelo is a legitimate superstar. If you're interested, you can peruse the ABPR forums where they discuss Carmelo and some guys who are very well versed in basketball statistics make some compelling claims. From what I understand, they crunched a lot numbers and tried to gauge the value of shot creation. A lot of it goes over my head, so for now, I'm just sticking with what I know.
    Which is one of the problems of advanced stats in basketball. Because there are so many confounders that could be considered there is so much bias in the stats. Baseball is different because each activity is clear (I.e. pitcher throws pitch - batter swings - result) and conditions can be controlled for. Basketball has many options going on at different times and many thing effecting each action. I don't reject them completely and they do help to provide some insight but there are too many variables for people to manipulate the statistics to show what they want. That is call bias which is what the OP inserted here when he selected his year and comparison group.

  11. #131
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    One thing I'll say is this:

    There is no way I can believe that posting negative about melo is taboo.

    I would say about 75% of posts in nba forum are negative. Even in threads that are ment to be postive.

    I dont disagree with the op at all.
    I have come to love melo, from not liking him when he first got here, and this team is going is live and die with him. But he definitely isn't the most efficient scorer at times.

    But, just my opinion, its pointless to make threads about melo like this because
    1) we all know this ****. To most people who follow bball in this forum, we know what melo is good and isn't good at, we know his critisizms and deficiencies.
    2) we are all Knicks fans here so why not just stop trying to nitpick and analyze every little thing about a player to prove he isn't as good as people think, when he is out biggest star/player/scorer.

    It's all been said before.
    Every single time a melo thread pops up, people argue for days on all the reasons why he is and isn't good.

    So, no offense rosh, I'm not trying to attack you, just asking, what's the point in trying to prove one of our own guys isn't good?

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    First thing, I'll agree its not a baiting thread..............

    But I will say its a negative thread at Melo's expense.

    So we now throw advanced stats around and say he's not all that? All what exactly?

    Melo was ranked in the top 10 last yr and around 9 or 10 is where he belongs.

    Why are we comparing him to Lebron, Kobe, Durant? Does anyone feel he's better than them?

    We don't have Lebron, he didn't come.
    We don't have Kobe, he didn't come.
    We don't have Durant, he's a lifer for Okla.
    Heck we don't have Pierce, Granger, or anyone not on Melo's level either.

    We do have Melo, he has room to improve, he has talent to be a top 5.

    I'm hoping we built enough talent around him to bring that out, I'm hoping Woody will do his best to bring out the beat our team can be.


    The point of the thread exactly is what? Melo is not the best in the league, he's not according to advanced stats a top 8 player?

    Well thanks again, we point out the obvious, and I'm not picking on Rosh, but its not a thread that says we got Melo, we have the best we could get either?

    I see this as 100% negative, tell me what the OP had that has something that the NBA forum wouldn't put out there from non Knick fans?

    Me personally I think it should be merged, it's a posters right to post Melo's stats, and his opinion, but there is a Melo thread open already, and by the way has a link.

    So to me Melo had a nice thread from his college coach and then this had to be threaded to say what exactly? His college coach is a moron?


    I'm sorry but I'm a little tired of year after year, after year, after year a handful of Posters dominate threads either trashing or being negative about our guys.

    From Gallo, Chandler, Stat, Lee, etc etc ....now it appears to be all on Melo?

    Why is there no STAT threads? How's his STATs lately?

    Oh maybe its than Linsanity reason? Maybe, or maybe not, but I still like to know why the thread if you root for the guy like you say?

    Why the thread pointing out advanced stats that aren't exactly bad? So yea they aren't up there with the best, but he's not the best.

    He can be and I hope this year he breaks out, so why not a thread about how he can break out, and how he's playing in the Olympics, and how he's in amazing shape, and how all the top players named all would love Melo as their teammate?


    Tell a few of you this, I'll take the words of the guys that actually cover Melo, the guys that publicly say they would take Melo over almost anyone not named Lebron as their mate.

    Yea I'll go with that, and guess what, I'm damn happy about it.

    Was I thrilled with the trade? Nope, love those guys, but we got what none of them can ever be, and replaced them with others who can produce just as much and then got Melo.


    Melo is a Knick like it or not, we go as he goes. Keep pointing out the obvious and leave everything else out and where exactly are we as Knick fans?

    I just got here and I see the three other Mod's posted here and didn't merge, but I personally feel it should have, whats the next melo thread going to be?
    Agree with every word

  13. #133
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    To OP and just about everyone on here.... Melo's game is like wine... an acquired taste. I'm not his biggest fan in the world as his game does strongly resembles Glenn Robinson which most of you youngsters don't know except for playing on NBA Live as a kid...

    I would say that Melo is the type of guy who will eventually get a ring but it won't be as the number 1 banana on this team. He'll eventually have to be that 3rd/4th guy on like a Laker squad to make that happen in the twilight of his career.
    AS MJ WOULD SAY " IS THIS SIGNATURE IN VIOLATION NOW..."

    "Isiah's about as safe as me in a room full of cookies, If I'm in a room full of cookies the cookies ain't got no chance." --- Sir Charles

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Knicks View Post
    The truth about Melo is either you love him or hate him no inbetween. Sorry for the haters Melo fixing to shut everyone up...
    I think the view you have and share with others, is the problem. What you said is far from the truth.

    I think that most people are in the middle about Melo. I love the guys game. I love his potential. I see glimpses of an amazing player.
    Then I see moments of pouting, giving up, not hustling and chucking. That becomes frustrating.

    When someone even insinuates criticism, It's considered hate. In many people's eyes, there is no possibility for liking and rooting for a guy while at the same time, wanting him to work to his potential. You're called a hater.

    Truth is, the people that see Melo objectively see a player who can improve and become an even more dynamic player on both ends of the court. We see the possibility for growth. With our view, the sky's the limit for him.
    Melo lovers don't think he can or needs to improve, there love is so blind that they don't want him to change a thing.

    He will always be just as he is, limited, like the viewpoint.
    To never need to get better is a pretty stiff sentence for someone you love.
    (and be careful with your response. If you say he can get better that means you're a hater)
    I know there are real haters of him. And they are as biased as the lovers but please don't lump the vast majority of us in with one of two sides on this

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by roshan3ai View Post
    I didn't include Kobe, because he was a chucker this year. He was not an efficient basketball player and in my opinion had one of the worst seasons of his career.
    u didnt include kobe because he's been a chucker all his life and his advanced stats isnt that great... I mean kobe shoots 45% from the field just like melo and probably takes alot more shots than he does

    but nobody can argue with the fact kobe has lead his team to 3 final appearences and 2 championships as a leader so you're argument would have been void

    which is why you didn't put kobe up because you wanted to bait melo

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