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  1. #61
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    The potential of this team is really exciting.

  2. #62
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    Poor us...LOL. Boy, sure is tough when you have so many options at multiple positions and too many talented pitchers to get starts....oh, well. Guess we'll just have to manage.

    I think Adams will be the first one traded when/if Furcal so much as stubs his toe. Can't see him supplanting Craig from first. Even if Holiday/Beltran go down with an injury, does Adams beat Carpenter out for first? Unless the on-going 2b experiment is succesul, then maybe Adams stays. However, I think MM likes Descalso (so do I) for the interim.

    Just rambling out loud, so to speak. Most fun post season I've had with all of the possibilities.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    I think the overall goal will be get him time in LF/CF/RF but will eventually take the biggest chunk from Jay when its all said and done this season. I don't think that affects Jays future here. I think he will be the CF here for at least 3-4 more years after this year. Extremely productive for his price.

    I do think it would be better though to take about 30 to 40 games off for Beltran this year though. Try to get him in the range of 120-135 game or so. Guy is getting to old and injury issued to play 151 games like last year. It really made him go through stretches with nagging injuries he was extremely ineffective

    Something that would be extremely interesting is if Tavares plays very well in center, which would be he has to make some pretty decent improvements to be an everyday CF, similar to how Jay has progressed. But if he does a good enough job does the organization look at moving Craig to RF, Tavares to CF and keeping Adams at 1B?

    Frankly I don't think so but an interesting situation for sure. I'd guess Jay stays in CF, Craig 1B, Tavares RF and Adams traded. But fun to think about haha
    Yup.

    We could probably trade Jay to the Phillies though and get their last remaining prospects. They have always really liked him and are missing some outfielders for OD.

    But it's way too soon to move him.

    Personally, I'd look to giving him a 3-5 year deal with some club options on the back end.

    Say something like:

    2013 - 2
    2014 - 4
    2016 - 6
    2017 - 8
    2018 - 8 (club option, 2 mil buyout)

    That's plenty fair to him, and if he continues to be a major player for us, then he is controlled at a reasonable salary and buys out potentially 2 years of free agency.

    That would be 5/28, with a min of 4/22. This might be something to wait a year to do of course, maybe during the season.

    Either way, it's too premature until we know that Taveras is capable of being an everyday big leaguer. But once he shows he can/is then you maybe consider moving someone. Jay has some value to other teams. But unless Taveras is an everyday CFer, there is no point in moving him. But you would if Taveras is going to play center everyday, because Jay's value drops a lot if he has to play left or right.


    It's also worth pointing out that Holliday will have to move to first base within the next few years, I'm thinking 2015. By that time, we will need another left fielder. I see Taveras being the long term right fielder though, he just isn't a center fielder in the big leagues.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by salto View Post
    Poor us...LOL. Boy, sure is tough when you have so many options at multiple positions and too many talented pitchers to get starts....oh, well. Guess we'll just have to manage.

    I think Adams will be the first one traded when/if Furcal so much as stubs his toe. Can't see him supplanting Craig from first. Even if Holiday/Beltran go down with an injury, does Adams beat Carpenter out for first? Unless the on-going 2b experiment is succesul, then maybe Adams stays. However, I think MM likes Descalso (so do I) for the interim.

    Just rambling out loud, so to speak. Most fun post season I've had with all of the possibilities.
    yup.


    There are a few options. But we do need to think long term on shortstop.

    If Carpenter can play second base, then wow. We are lucky. But I don't think the plan is really to have him play there everyday. But rather to get him in the lineup more. I still think he is the first priority at all corner positions as the primary back up. But he will play second if he isn't getting enough PA's as the bench guy and first backup (i.e, everyone has been healthy).

    He'll play right some this season for Beltran. He'll play some second, some first, and some third, just spelling off-days for everyone.

    Adams might just sit on the bench as a pinch hitter. It might not be fair to him, but I don't know that he has that much trade value, and unless you can find a shortstop for him and an arm. Then there is really no point in moving him, as he would be a valuable bench bat.....but he can't play anywhere defensively. And it's nice to have bench players that can play multiple positions. He has never played the outfield, at any level. So that sort of stinks.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Yup.

    We could probably trade Jay to the Phillies though and get their last remaining prospects. They have always really liked him and are missing some outfielders for OD.

    But it's way too soon to move him.

    Personally, I'd look to giving him a 3-5 year deal with some club options on the back end.

    Say something like:

    2013 - 2
    2014 - 4
    2016 - 6
    2017 - 8
    2018 - 8 (club option, 2 mil buyout)

    That's plenty fair to him, and if he continues to be a major player for us, then he is controlled at a reasonable salary and buys out potentially 2 years of free agency.

    That would be 5/28, with a min of 4/22. This might be something to wait a year to do of course, maybe during the season.

    Either way, it's too premature until we know that Taveras is capable of being an everyday big leaguer. But once he shows he can/is then you maybe consider moving someone. Jay has some value to other teams. But unless Taveras is an everyday CFer, there is no point in moving him. But you would if Taveras is going to play center everyday, because Jay's value drops a lot if he has to play left or right.


    It's also worth pointing out that Holliday will have to move to first base within the next few years, I'm thinking 2015. By that time, we will need another left fielder. I see Taveras being the long term right fielder though, he just isn't a center fielder in the big leagues.
    Completely agree about Jay. I see no reason to trade him but if Tavares does become an everyday CF Jay lacks value in corners. Not enough power. But he does bring a lot of value here for his price. He will never be an overly expensive player but will always be a very quality player

    Holliday I'm thinking can play outfield through 2015 and probably need to be moved to 1B to start 2016

    Probably just depends by our situation and who we have coming up.

    I really hope we can get a SS of the future soon to go with Wong at 2B.

    When was the last time we knew for more than 2 years in a row who are starting middle infield is? Has so be Renteria-Vina right?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    Completely agree about Jay. I see no reason to trade him but if Tavares does become an everyday CF Jay lacks value in corners. Not enough power. But he does bring a lot of value here for his price. He will never be an overly expensive player but will always be a very quality player

    Holliday I'm thinking can play outfield through 2015 and probably need to be moved to 1B to start 2016

    Probably just depends by our situation and who we have coming up.

    I really hope we can get a SS of the future soon to go with Wong at 2B.

    When was the last time we knew for more than 2 years in a row who are starting middle infield is? Has so be Renteria-Vina right?
    Technically...Schumaker and Ryan in 09 and 10.

    then Eckstein and Miles in 06 and 07

    And then, Renteria and Vina from 00-02 together.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Technically...Schumaker and Ryan in 09 and 10.

    then Eckstein and Miles in 06 and 07

    And then, Renteria and Vina from 00-02 together.
    I guess I should be more specific.

    When we had 2 guys who 9 of 10 days were going to be there and if they were out of the position it was to rest not play another position lol.

    Miles played most of the games at 2B in 06 and 07 but played a lot at SS and 3B

    But yeah 09-10 works for that. I honestly completely forget about Ryan all the time. And I was one of his supporters that his defense made him more valuable to the team than his lack of offense hurt lol

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    Completely agree about Jay. I see no reason to trade him but if Tavares does become an everyday CF Jay lacks value in corners. Not enough power. But he does bring a lot of value here for his price. He will never be an overly expensive player but will always be a very quality player

    Holliday I'm thinking can play outfield through 2015 and probably need to be moved to 1B to start 2016

    Probably just depends by our situation and who we have coming up.

    I really hope we can get a SS of the future soon to go with Wong at 2B.

    When was the last time we knew for more than 2 years in a row who are starting middle infield is? Has so be Renteria-Vina right?
    Wong reminds me of Vina but with pop

    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    I guess I should be more specific.

    When we had 2 guys who 9 of 10 days were going to be there and if they were out of the position it was to rest not play another position lol.

    Miles played most of the games at 2B in 06 and 07 but played a lot at SS and 3B

    But yeah 09-10 works for that. I honestly completely forget about Ryan all the time. And I was one of his supporters that his defense made him more valuable to the team than his lack of offense hurt lol
    I miss Ryan honestly. His defense was so damn good, it made of for his bat. Although he wasn't disgustingly bad offensively. I wish we would have held on to him.
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Wong reminds me of Vina but with pop



    I miss Ryan honestly. His defense was so damn good, it made of for his bat. Although he wasn't disgustingly bad offensively. I wish we would have held on to him.
    Yeah, I get the same feeling on Wong. I think he will have a bit more extra base
    Power than Vina. I think Wong could be a guy who pops out 10 home runs a year. I think he's gonna be a really good player. Better than I first thought he would be

    I also miss Ryan. Not terribly, I'd start Furcal over him just because I think Furcal plays more than good enough defense and adds more offense but I honestly feel like Ryan would be the perfect back up plan we are looking for to spell Furcal

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    Yeah, I get the same feeling on Wong. I think he will have a bit more extra base
    Power than Vina. I think Wong could be a guy who pops out 10 home runs a year. I think he's gonna be a really good player. Better than I first thought he would be

    I also miss Ryan. Not terribly, I'd start Furcal over him just because I think Furcal plays more than good enough defense and adds more offense but I honestly feel like Ryan would be the perfect back up plan we are looking for to spell Furcal
    I see Wong being a solid defender at second with a high .280 low .290 average and knock out 10-15 homeruns. I think he'll be a very solid second baseman.

    And I'd start Ryan over Furcal, I used to love Furcal. But I just don't know how healthy he's going to be. I'd prefer to use him at second this year and back up short stop. I've always loved Ryan. Plays the game so damn hard and is a damn good competitor
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  11. #71
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    Here is Sickels write-up on the Cardinals system. Top 5 pretty easily.

    http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/...pects-for-2013

    The list and grades are a blending of present performance and long-term potential. Comments are welcome, but in the end all analysis and responsibility is mine. Full reports on all of players can be found in the 2013 Baseball Prospect Book. We are now taking pre-orders. Order early and order often!

    QUICK PRIMER ON GRADE MEANINGS:

    Grade A prospects are the elite. They have a reasonable chance of becoming stars or superstars. Almost all Grade A prospects develop into major league regulars, if injuries or other problems don't intervene. Note that is a major "if" in some cases.

    Grade B prospects have a good chance to enjoy successful careers. Some will develop into stars, some will not. Most end up spending several years in the majors, at the very least in a marginal role.

    Grade C prospects are the most common type. These are guys who have something positive going for them, but who may have a question mark or three, or who are just too far away from the majors to get an accurate feel for. A few Grade C guys, especially at the lower levels, do develop into stars. Some end up as role players or bench guys. Many don't make it at all.

    Also note that there is diversity within each category. I'm a tough grader; Grade C+ is actually good praise, and some C+ prospects (especially at lower levels) turn out very well indeed.

    Finally, keep in mind that all grades are shorthand. You have to read the full comment in the book for my full opinion about a player, the letter grade only tells you so much. A Grade C prospect in rookie ball could end up being very impressive, while a Grade C prospect in Triple-A is likely just a future role player.

    ALL GRADES ARE PRELIMINARY AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE. No grade is final until January 5th, 2013

    1) Oscar Taveras, OF, Grade A: One of the easiest grades in the book. Outstanding hitter for power and average, and he improved his baserunning and defense. Next great Cardinals star? Seems like it to me.

    2) Shelby Miller, RHP, Grade A: Terrific second half of the season saved his A rating from last year. Still looks like a rotation anchor to me, just needs to stay healthy.

    3) Carlos Martinez, RHP, Grade A-: Borderline B+: Still has some rough edges but he made enough progress that I'm comfortable bumping him up a notch. Like Miller, he can be a top of the rotation guy if he avoids injury. He's moved very quickly and if I were the Cardinals I think I would slow things down a little and avoid bringing him to the majors in 2013 unless nobody else is available.

    4) Trevor Rosenthal, RHP, Grade B+: Borderline A-: Another very live arm who could pitch at the top of the rotation eventually, or perhaps become a power closer.

    5) Michael Wacha, RHP, Grade B+: Exceeded expectations in pro ball, granted the sample is small, but still. . .40/4 K/BB in 21 innings? Dang. I thought he was a future number three starter, but if he maintains the uptick in velocity he showed in pro ball, he's another guy you can build the rotation around.

    6) Kolten Wong, 2B, Grade B: Solid but unspectacular season in Double-A, with his defense looking quite good and a decent hitting line. Looked good to me in Arizona Fall League. I still see him as a future regular second baseman who hits for average, gets on base, and provides a steady glove.

    7) Matt Adams, 1B, Grade B: Poorly-timed injury, but he destroyed Triple-A pitching and given his track record I think he will eventually adapt to the majors. Like Wong, I don't see him as a star, but rather as a solid regular.

    8) Tyrell Jenkins, RHP, Grade B-: His upside is as high as the guys above him, but injuries and command problems short-circuited him in Low-A. Disappointing, but the talent is still here.

    9) Anthony Garcia, OF, Grade B-: I absolutely do not understand why this guy doesn't get more press. His power is very real, and even marginal improvements in the strike zone would result in a huge breakout. Crushed Low-A pitching.

    10) Carson Kelly, 3B, Grade B-: Highest-ceiling and youngest of the third basemen drafted in 2012 by the Cards. Will also take the most time to develop. Needs more patience and defensive work. Profile is similar to Diamondbacks prospect Matt Davidson at the same stage of his career.

    11) Patrick Wisdom, 3B, Grade B-: Excellent glove, and he hit better in the New York-Penn League than he did in college. Expect power and patience, we'll have to see about the batting average.

    12) Stephen Piscotty, 3B, Grade B-: Nice solid line drive hitter, but he doesn't have Wisdom's glove nor Kelly's pure upside. That's a problem, since Piscotty's bat won't look as good in the outfield or at first base unless he boosts home run production.

    13) Greg Garcia, 2B-SS, Grade C+: Wong's double play partner at Springfield is a strong yet overlooked prospect in his own right with very sound on-base skills. Stretched at shortstop, he's better at second base but that's Wong's position.

    14) Seth Maness, RHP, Grade C+: Truly outstanding command helps mediocre velocity play up. Seems like he can be a sound inning-eater to me, or at worst an attractive trade chit for another team.

    15) John Gast, LHP, Grade C+: A good arm from the left side, but erratic with his command and more likely to fit in the bullpen than the rotation for St. Louis.

    16) Starlin Rodriguez, 2B, Grade C+: Another overlooked prospect who would get a lot more attention if he played in a weaker farm system. Good fielder, hit for average with some pop, strong performance in High-A. Good showing in Double-A will get him on the conveyer belt towards an opportunity of Wong doesn't pan out.

    17) Ryan Jackson, SS, Grade C+: Very sound defensive player and can surprise you with his hitting at times. If you really need a shortstop, you could do a lot worse than just sticking Jackson in the lineup, hit him low in the order, and enjoy his fundamental play. More value for a real team than a fantasy one.

    18) Maikel Cleto, RHP, Grade C+: Gotta respect the arm strength. Will he ever throw strikes well enough for the 100 MPH fastball to matter?

    19) Tyler Lyons, LHP, Grade C+: Sleeper prospect who has more talent and pitched better than his 4.00+ ERA in Triple-A indicates. Would be a sneaky rotation candidate for some teams due to strike-throwing ability, but he gets lost in the crowd here.

    20) Breyvic Valera, INF, Grade C+: Another sound infielder, this one advancing to Low-A for 2013. Hits for average, defense is promising at second base, could develop more power than people expect.


    OTHER GRADE C+: Tim Cooney, LHP; Victor De Leon, RHP; James Ramsey, OF; Boone Whiting, RHP

    OTHERS: Steve Bean, C; Michael Blazek, RHP; Keith Butler, RHP; Adron Chambers, OF; Victor De Leon, RHP; Adam Ehrlich, C; Eric Fornataro, RHP; Sam Freeman, LHP; Silfredo Garcia, RHP; Sam Gaviglio, RHP; Pete Kozma, SS: Jake Lemmerman, INF; Dixon Llorrens, RHP; C.J. McElroy, OF; Mike O'Neill, OF; Jorge Rondon, RHP; Kevin Siegrist, LHP; Lee Stoppelman, LHP; Jordan Swagerty, RHP; Charlie Tilson, OF; Colin Walsh, OF-INF

    What can you say? This is one hell of a farm system. There is impact talent. There are future stars. And there are a lot of guys who project as solid role players to back them up.

    The pitching. . .you have four guys in Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal, and Wacha who could be and should be rotation anchors. Jenkins has that kind of talent too, if he can refine it. There is a ton of pitching behind them, with a good mixture of strike-throwers (Maness, Lyons, Boone Whiting) and guys with hot arms. The Cardinals should never want for good relief pitching, and if even if some of the top guys get hurt or don't pan out, one of the efficiency experts could step in.

    As history shows (Oakland's Four Aces, Generation K of the Mets, the Royals a couple of years ago), having a great batch of pitching prospects is no guarantee of success. There will be injury attrition, and someone will be a disappointment. But the point is to gather as many pitchers as possible to provide depth to cover for the inevitable failures, and the Cardinals are masters at doing this.

    But the Cardinals also have lots of hitting to go with the pitching. Taveras will be a star, Wong and Adams look like regulars, and there are a bunch of guys who should be role players or strong contributors at least. The 2012 draft brought in additional bats, with particular depth at third base. If those guys thrive in 2013, this list will still look strong next year even if the top guys graduate.

    Overall, this is an amazing system, a prospect factory. They find guys at big colleges, they find guys at small colleges, they find guys in junior college, they find and develop high school guys, they find and develop Latin American guys. They do everything.

    If you don't believe in the Cards system yet, it's time.

    There is absolutely no reason for us to spend any money in free agency unless it's to improve at shortstop. We have soo much talent, it's absolutely ridiculous. Let's hope this trend continues.

  12. #72
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    Don't we have another draft coming up too? What should we do with all these guys? We have a big chunk of our future starting lineup in our farm system already

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shlumpledink View Post
    Don't we have another draft coming up too? What should we do with all these guys? We have a big chunk of our future starting lineup in our farm system already
    Well a good number will always fail. The nice thing about in baseball is that you can stockpile the picks, because of the failure rate.

    So stock up, and when you have too much.....go get some more.


    Some can be used as trade options, but it's a nice core we could have coming along here.

  14. #74
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    Tavers discussion going on in the MLB forum under top prospects

  15. #75
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    One of the best prospects in baseball has new representation. Cardinals outfield prospect Oscar Taveras has dropped agent Melvin Roman for Rob Plummer, MLBTR has learned. It's a coup for Plummer, who now represents several of the game's best Dominican prospects, such as Miguel Sano of the Twins and Carlos Martinez, also of the Cardinals.

    Taveras, 20, ascended to Double-A last year with great success. Most prospect gurus rank him in their top three, and he's got a good shot at making his Major League debut in 2013.

    For agency info on over 1,700 players, check out MLBTR's oft-updated agency database. Agents: if you've got a 40-man roster player or top prospect whose representation is not correctly noted, we welcome corrections at mlbtrdatabase@gmail.com.

    Michael Wacha

    5-5, 2.79 Era, 83 So, 1.12 Whip

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