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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon93405 View Post
    Yesterday Reed Johnson played RF and they put Heyward in CF even though Johnson has a lot of time out there. Do you think there's any possibility that they're considering putting Heyward in CF next season and going after a corner instead?
    Absolutely. If Matt Kemp has the range to be a center fielder, so does Heyward, and Heyward's bat will carry the position even if he's only a decent defender there. If nothing else, developing Heyward's versatility will give them leverage in negotiations with center fielders like Michael Bourn and give them the flexibility to sign or acquire the players who fit best. With Prado and Heyward, the Braves need two starters between third base, left field, center field and right field, which will open up plenty of possibilities for Frank Wren.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench View Post
    Agreed.

    Even without Beachy this is a list I can see these as locks,

    Tim Hudson
    Tommy Hanson
    Mike Minor

    Then these fighting for the last two,

    Sean Gilmartin
    Julio Teheran
    Randall Delgado

    Might be a dark house among these who all have had great seasons thus far,

    J.R. Graham
    Cody Martin
    Aaron Northcraft
    You're forgetting Paul Maholm, whose option is sure to be picked up, and Kris Medlen as well. And Ben Sheets, who picked the Braves over several other teams and very well could do so again in 2013. Given the depth, I'm not even so sure Tommy Hanson is a lock as he hits arbitration and could provide the Braves a sell-high opportunity to grab some young hitting talent. And while I'm optimistic like you about the dark horses you name, they're realistically going to need another year in the minors before they're big-league ready. Jumping from High-A to the bigs is pretty tough to do.

    Realistically, it's a competition between Hudson, Maholm, Delgado, Hanson, Teheran, Minor, Medlen, dark horse Gilmartin and Sheets if he re-signs. That's a ton of pitchers.

  2. #32
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    Just imagine for a second the kind of talent the Braves could bring in if they traded Hanson, Minor and Maholm. That would free up about $10 million in payroll while keeping Hudson, Medlen, Sheets, Delgado and Teheran as starters. You'd be talking about acquiring five to seven truly legit prospects or controllable young players (and at least one of those could be a pitching prospect to give some depth in case of injury before Beachy returns). And that doesn't even count the depth at Double-A and below, with Gilmartin, Spruill, Graham, Martin, Northcraft, Schlosser, Alex Wood and Lucas Sims.

    I'm not necessarily saying I think this will happen, but it just shows you how silly the Braves' pitching depth is. Given the controllable young talent we could get in return, we could conceivably even fill out the lineup cheaply enough to make a run at Greinke. The possibilities are endless, and it'll be highly disappointing if the Braves don't come out aggressive this winter.

  3. #33
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    Haha had a major brian fart... no idea how I forgot those guys....

    More to the point we have plenty of options for SP.

  4. #34
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    Something will have to be done about that logjam. It's nice to have a couple of extra pitchers, but not this many. The returns could be enormous as well as save the club money that could go to extending present players or buying out years of arbitration.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtgthree View Post
    Just imagine for a second the kind of talent the Braves could bring in if they traded Hanson, Minor and Maholm. That would free up about $10 million in payroll while keeping Hudson, Medlen, Sheets, Delgado and Teheran as starters. You'd be talking about acquiring five to seven truly legit prospects or controllable young players (and at least one of those could be a pitching prospect to give some depth in case of injury before Beachy returns). And that doesn't even count the depth at Double-A and below, with Gilmartin, Spruill, Graham, Martin, Northcraft, Schlosser, Alex Wood and Lucas Sims.

    I'm not necessarily saying I think this will happen, but it just shows you how silly the Braves' pitching depth is. Given the controllable young talent we could get in return, we could conceivably even fill out the lineup cheaply enough to make a run at Greinke. The possibilities are endless, and it'll be highly disappointing if the Braves don't come out aggressive this winter.
    I really like the idea of doing that, although I'm not sold on Sheets Delgado or Teheran together being the 3-5 spots in the rotation. I just don't think Sheets will be able to keep it together, and I don't see both Delgado and Teheran as ready for full time work.

  6. #36
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    hmmmm, i like our team. we have options for next year, which is never bad.
    Last edited by chipurmunki; 08-05-2012 at 01:22 AM.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyRyback View Post
    I really like the idea of doing that, although I'm not sold on Sheets Delgado or Teheran together being the 3-5 spots in the rotation. I just don't think Sheets will be able to keep it together, and I don't see both Delgado and Teheran as ready for full time work.
    I agree there's significant risk there, and now that I've seen Maholm pitch, I'm more interested in keeping him around as one of next year's five starters. He's not likely to have THAT much trade value, and while I don't believe in using inferior pitchers just because they happen to be left-handed, it would be nice to have a southpaw in the rotation. Plus he replaces one of the high-risk guys with a low-risk, steady option.

    With that said, though, I absolutely believe in Ben Sheets. The scouting reports from his pre-signing workouts were strong, his peripherals are strong, his batted ball profile is strong, his results are strong. I'm even at the point where I'd consider a two- or three-year deal for him this winter, since I think he can absolutely be a continuing contributor who likes pitching in Atlanta.

    I also think that keeping Julio Teheran and Kris Medlen out of the 2013 rotation is a huge mistake. All accounts are that they've had Teheran doing a ton of tinkering at the Triple-A level, and that's been leading to his struggles this year. Most experts haven't docked his prospect status much, and I really think he just needs to be slotted in the rotation and left to take his lumps and learn. The stuff is there and so are the intangibles; his one major-league start this year was absolutely filthy against a very good Yankees offense until he gave up a few hits in a row and got a premature hook. And Medlen has pitched so well in every role that the Braves have ever given him, that it's looking like just a waste of value to leave him in the bullpen when he could be far more valuable as a starter. He's a competitor, he badly wants to start, and he's proven he's capable of doing it. Bullpen arms are much easier to replace.

    If you had told me at the beginning of this season that I'd be hoping for a 2013 rotation of Tim Hudson, Ben Sheets, Paul Maholm, Kris Medlen and Julio Teheran, I probably would have asked for some of whatever you are smoking. But at this point in the season, that's where I stand.

    I'm also really starting to hope that the Braves don't sign anyone to come out of the bullpen. Kimbrel is locked in as the closer, the setup trio of Venters, Martinez and O'Flaherty can be kept around for a relative bargain price of about $7 million total, and there are plenty of young guys to fill out the relief corps. I hope that Cory Gearrin is finally in the majors to stay; he was just too dominant at Triple-A to ignore. Anthony Varvaro whiffed 21 men in 16 2/3 innings this year, so I still struggle to see why Chad Durbin is on the roster instead of him. And I still like Luis Avilan's early showing; if he can get his walks down against same-sided hitters, he can be an effective situational third lefty. Plus it'll be interesting to see what Peter Moylan has to offer and it's hard to see him signing anywhere but Atlanta for 2013. So no multimillion-dollar free agent contracts should be necessary.

    EDIT: So, to add the depth chart I'm imagining here...

    Lineup: C Brian McCann, 1B Freddie Freeman, 2B Dan Uggla, 3B Martin Prado, SS Andrelton Simmons, LF ???, CF ???, RF Jason Heyward

    Bench: Juan Francisco, 4x????

    Rotation: Tim Hudson, Ben Sheets, Paul Maholm, Kris Medlen, Julio Teheran

    Bullpen: Craig Kimbrel, Jonny Venters, Cristhian Martinez, Eric O'Flaherty, Cory Gearrin, Anthony Varvaro, Luis Avilan

    That leaves a need for two outfielders (or an outfielder and a third baseman) and four bench players. If you assume Sheets' salary as $7.3 million, which is double what he will make this year including all his incentives, that puts the total at $73.55 million, leaving almost $20 million to spend. That looks solid to me.
    Last edited by rtgthree; 08-05-2012 at 11:13 AM.

  8. #38
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    I let Bourn walk this year, I trade EOF, Hanson and JJ (in JJ's case for whatever we can get) this offseason and I let McCann walk after next year unless he takes a big discount compared to what other catchers have been making.

    Imo I think they trade away a couple other pieces if they could get Greinke for $18M/yr to free up a little more money.

    That is what I would do at least if I were FW.

  9. #39
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    To me the rotation comes down to Sheets vs. Minor. I like the rest of your set up, but unless there is an OF starter coming back for Minor, I wouldn't deal him.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hightech90 View Post
    I let Bourn walk this year, I trade EOF, Hanson and JJ (in JJ's case for whatever we can get) this offseason and I let McCann walk after next year unless he takes a big discount compared to what other catchers have been making.

    Imo I think they trade away a couple other pieces if they could get Greinke for $18M/yr to free up a little more money.

    That is what I would do at least if I were FW.
    First, I'm not sure how much trade value O'Flaherty is going to have. He'll be due a raise in arbitration before becoming a free agent, so I don't think you're going to get anything very useful back in return. Perhaps the Braves could explore an extension?

    Second, I don't think Jurrjens isn't tradeable anymore. The Braves have waited too long and let him suck too much. He'll just be non-tendered at the end of the season.

    I'm wary like you of giving big extensions to the likes of Michael Bourn and Brian McCann, but in that same vein I don't see the attraction of throwing $100 million at Zack Greinke. The pitching is plenty deep without him, even if Hanson is traded as you propose. Barring a huge rise in payroll, I just don't think there's any way that the Braves can afford Greinke, since signing him would exhaust just about all of their financial resources without addressing any of the holes on offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by iamaj View Post
    To me the rotation comes down to Sheets vs. Minor. I like the rest of your set up, but unless there is an OF starter coming back for Minor, I wouldn't deal him.
    Minor wouldn't have to be dealt, although he'd certainly be a candidate. With a Hudson/Sheets/Maholm/Medlen/Teheran rotation, there would be room and justification for keeping Delgado or Minor at Gwinnett in case of emergency. I'm still skeptical of Minor's recent success; everyone has been holding up his last four starts (prior to his rain-aborted last outing), but he gave up a home run in each of those games. He just got lucky that they were solo shots every time, and that's not really a good way to survive in my opinion. With his flyball rate, gopheritis is always going to be a problem, which means the rest of his game has to be perfectly on point to avoid disaster. I do think he's better than Kevin Slowey, but there's definitely some similarity there...and that's not really a good thing.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtgthree View Post
    First, I'm not sure how much trade value O'Flaherty is going to have. He'll be due a raise in arbitration before becoming a free agent, so I don't think you're going to get anything very useful back in return. Perhaps the Braves could explore an extension?

    Second, I don't think Jurrjens isn't tradeable anymore. The Braves have waited too long and let him suck too much. He'll just be non-tendered at the end of the season.

    I'm wary like you of giving big extensions to the likes of Michael Bourn and Brian McCann, but in that same vein I don't see the attraction of throwing $100 million at Zack Greinke. The pitching is plenty deep without him, even if Hanson is traded as you propose. Barring a huge rise in payroll, I just don't think there's any way that the Braves can afford Greinke, since signing him would exhaust just about all of their financial resources without addressing any of the holes on offense.
    Well then your options go to the OF. In which case I 100% let Bourn walk after this year. He is a boras client and he will be asking too much considering his big thing, which is speed, will begin to decline and won't be anywhere near the money in about 3-4 years. I assume he will want a 5 year deal. I think giving Greinke $20M a year is not as bad as giving Bourn $15M a year.

    Somebody would have to give me a list of the other OF options, but last time I looked at it there wasn't much choice. Some are saying swisher and I am just not high on him at all. I just think you are going to have to trade for someone.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hightech90 View Post
    I think giving Greinke $20M a year is not as bad as giving Bourn $15M a year.
    OK, but fortunately it's not like the Braves are forced to do one or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hightech90 View Post
    Somebody would have to give me a list of the other OF options, but last time I looked at it there wasn't much choice. Some are saying swisher and I am just not high on him at all. I just think you are going to have to trade for someone.
    You really could go get a list of other OF options yourself...MLB Trade Rumors has a list of 2013 and 2014 free agents linked right on their home page. There are a ton of available options this winter, from Josh Hamilton on down through Swisher and Bourn to the likes of B.J. Upton. There's variety and the excess supply may prevent prices from getting excessively ridiculous. Add in the fact that using our young pitching as trade chips, we can effectively trade for just about anybody who might be available (ahem, Justin Upton), and the market expands even further. And as for Swisher, I don't see what people don't like about him. The man has done nothing but produce since 2009...what more do people want?

  13. #43
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    Swisher could do well in Atlanta, and the Braves will be someone in LF next season. Before the Uggla deal happened, Swisher was one of my preferred options for the Braves along with Dunn.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtgthree View Post
    OK, but fortunately it's not like the Braves are forced to do one or the other.



    You really could go get a list of other OF options yourself...MLB Trade Rumors has a list of 2013 and 2014 free agents linked right on their home page. There are a ton of available options this winter, from Josh Hamilton on down through Swisher and Bourn to the likes of B.J. Upton. There's variety and the excess supply may prevent prices from getting excessively ridiculous. Add in the fact that using our young pitching as trade chips, we can effectively trade for just about anybody who might be available (ahem, Justin Upton), and the market expands even further. And as for Swisher, I don't see what people don't like about him. The man has done nothing but produce since 2009...what more do people want?
    I am not saying you have to pay one or the other, just saying what I would rather do giving the choice. I was using that statement to state how much I want the Braves to just let Bourn walk this offseason.

    As far as the FA OF class I am just not impressed with too many of them. Yes, you could list me stats all day, but outside of Hamilton I don't see anyone being better then decent. B.J. has for whatever reason not lived up to expectations, maybe he hates the park, the city, idk. Now with that being said I wouldn't mind getting him for the right price since I want Bourn to walk.

    Swisher and Victorino I would be more willing to sign if they were younger. Their numbers are on the decline and I would just rather look for someone else. Now, I am not 100% against getting either of those guys, just saying there has to be a better option (maybe there isn't, idk. I don't have a list of all the potential OF trade targets in front of me. Justin Upton is the only good one that comes to mind)

  15. #45
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    I like to hear you guy's opinions on McCaan. I know he has another full year ahead of him but it seems logic to let him go and use Ross as full-time starter and find a good defensive backup for him. One, I think Ross proves to be a good starter at a good salary he is being paid. Secondly, McCaan numbers seem to be on decline last 3-4 years and not to mention how much we would save. I know we need a clubhouse guy with Chipper being gone this year and McCaan seems to be the one to lead after him but this is a business matter. I mean, maybe even trade McCaan this offseason while hestill hold value? What if he number continues to decline next year? His lower body starting to be show wear and tear over the years? Prove me wrong if I am not being realistic here. It just seems to be a logic thing to do here...

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