Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
What you defined was command, not control.

Command is putting the ball where you want. Control is not allowing the walks.

He doesn't have elite control, he has average control.

His command is difficult to assess, because we don't know where the pitcher is trying to throw the pitch when he delivers it. We just know the results.

I for one am a believer that a pitcher with good command, would also usually have at least above average control and not consciously allow walks since they are the cardinal sin of pitching.

And from watching him pitch, it's not like he hits Jose Molina's glove that well, he can become scattered at times.

Usually pitching command and control greatly improve as the pitcher gets closer to ages 27-28, and then it consistently gets better as they age. It's the one thing that pitchers improve on as they age. Usually command/control is weaker earlier in their careers and progressively gets better (obviously there are guys like Zambrano that do not do this).

As to your last comment, there is, I have seen it before, but I don't remember where. But those that do this (guys like Kershaw, Halladay, Lee Hernandez etc) are the best pitchers in the game, but they aren't beating their periphs.
To be fair I believe he is talking about Helly in the minors. His control is elite. It just hasn’t yet adjusted to the major league level. Cain and Felix reminds me of Helly. They had some control issues early on, but both had the stuff to be aces they just needed time to grow and adjust. Same with Hellickson.