Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





View Poll Results: Best SS ever

Voters
74. You may not vote on this poll
  • Wagner

    43 58.11%
  • A-Rod

    31 41.89%
Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 103

Thread: Best SS Ever

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,469
    vCash
    1500

    Best SS Ever

    Ok, so me and a few ppl were arguing best SS Ever,

    Lets just pretend Arod stayed at ss..Would he have gone down as better than Honus wagner?

    Also the real question is, who dominated there respective era more? Wagner OR Arod?

    I also dont want ppl factoring drugs, stricly who dominated there era more..

    (I argued Wagner)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    On The Block
    Posts
    29,887
    vCash
    1500
    We'll never have a completely accurate grasp on Wagner's defense.

    Honus was better considering his time period, because players were just a lot worse then, but A-Rod's numbers are better if you look at them head to head.

    Most everyone is going to say Wagner, but it's actually probably close.

    Coming soon to a TKRO stadium near you

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,469
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    We'll never have a completely accurate grasp on Wagner's defense.

    Honus was better considering his time period, because players were just a lot worse then, but A-Rod's numbers are better if you look at them head to head.

    Most everyone is going to say Wagner, but it's actually probably close.
    While we never saw wagner play defense, according to everything i have read he was a fine fielder/one one leagues best.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,469
    vCash
    1500
    Bill James says that Wagner is easily the greatest shortstop of all time, noting that the difference between Wagner and the second greatest shortstop, in James's estimation Arky Vaughan, is roughly the same as the gulf between Vaughan and the 20th greatest shortstop. (Obviously this was before arod, but still...)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Mexas
    Posts
    10,333
    vCash
    1500
    The one that didn't juice

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    8,703
    vCash
    1500
    inb4 Jeter

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    On The Block
    Posts
    29,887
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Bos_Sports4Life View Post
    While we never saw wagner play defense, according to everything i have read he was a fine fielder/one one leagues best.
    And by everything you'd read today you'd think Jeter was a fine fielder/one of the leagues best.

    Coming soon to a TKRO stadium near you

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    39,653
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    We'll never have a completely accurate grasp on Wagner's defense.

    Honus was better considering his time period, because players were just a lot worse then, but A-Rod's numbers are better if you look at them head to head.

    Most everyone is going to say Wagner, but it's actually probably close.
    Bill James and friends have studied Wagner defense like crazy and say he's either the best or 2nd best fielding SS of all time.

    The game was different then, and Honus dominated his game more then AROD did his. With adjustments added in Honus beats on AROD by a good measure. Also AROD is in decline, the longer he plays the worse his BA and OBP will be vs Wagner.

    Wagners neutral slash: .335/.400/.476 SB: 42
    A ROD's neutral slash: .293/.376/.548 SB: 20

    Wagner's OBP advantage just about swallows up AROD's SLG advantage.

    Fielding career wise (in BR runs): +85 > AROD's +30

    Wagner rWAR 126 > 110 for AROD
    Last edited by bagwell368; 07-12-2012 at 12:36 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,469
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    And by everything you'd read today you'd think Jeter was a fine fielder/one of the leagues best.
    I dont know anything else besides ESPN who believe jeter is average, never mind gg calliber.



    These stats are flawed I know, esp in wagners era but atleast its SOMETHING to go by..


    * Range Factor/Game as SS

    Wagner led the league 4 times and is 11th all time

    * Field %

    Wagner led the league 3 times

    * Putouts

    Wagner led the league twice, 2nd 5 other times


    Defensive WAR

    21.3, 39th all time

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    On The Block
    Posts
    29,887
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Bill James and friends have studied Wagner defense like crazy and say he's either the best or 2nd best fielding SS of all time.

    The game was different then, and Honus dominated his game more then AROD did his. With adjustments added in Honus beats on AROD by a good measure. Also AROD is in decline, the longer he plays the worse his BA and OBP will be vs Wagner.

    Wagner was also a great base runner unlike AROD.
    We don't even have a good defensive metric right now, in 2012, and you're putting that much stock in a few observations made on a guy who hasn't played in a century? Forgive me for being skeptical.

    Coming soon to a TKRO stadium near you

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,469
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    We don't even have a good defensive metric right now, in 2012, and you're putting that much stock in a few observations made on a guy who hasn't played in a century? Forgive me for being skeptical.
    I think with enough research you can come to a decent conclusion. These men are some of the brightest minds in baseball doing long hours of research..

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    39,653
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    And by everything you'd read today you'd think Jeter was a fine fielder/one of the leagues best.
    It's not just the accounts. It's the fielding records too.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,207
    vCash
    1500
    ARod, he was in talks for a decade to POSSIBLY be the best player of all time.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,207
    vCash
    1500
    IDk if Wagner's 25 point obp advantage swallows up an 80 point slugging advantage.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    40,242
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    It's not just the accounts. It's the fielding records too.
    I've always been skeptical of the old fielding records. I think it's certainly an interesting approach to trying to decipher who was good in the field/who was not, but it's over 100 years old. And certainly written with potential biases in them. With no real numbers, no real video and only the historical records written, it's almost impossible to decipher if Wagner really was a great fielder or not, even if it is the only/best way to even attempt to do it.

    Like I said, I find them interesting, just don't find them to be anywhere near definitive, either.
    #WhyNot?

    People ask me, "Why here? Why Kentucky?", I said "Why not"? It can be done here. It will be done here. Lay the foundation. Recruit and develop. Prepare to win. Day by day. Play by play. A new era of high performance. Why Kentucky? Why not? -Mark Stoops

Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •