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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by corralski View Post
    He said it, I didn't. How am I supposed to know that it was out of context and not a weak moment that he let it slip out?

    There are several other comments leading up to the "you didn't build that" part that support one to interpret the meaning as just that.

    If Obama had understood the amount of backlash from that comment and walked it back right away I would have to accept the explanation as any rational adult would. But c'mon man, two weeks later? And at least in my opinion he didn't address the comment directly except to say that he was in favor of giving credit to individual effort when it was earned?

    You are absolutely correct in that I was never going to vote for Obama, but if I am inclined to speak on this with some of my less informed friends whom have not made up their minds, well there you have it.

    It really is a shame for myself that I don't have a significant sum of money to contribute to Romney's campaign......
    How bout listen to more than a 5 second sound bite? Yeah... I have a a feeling you aren't convincing anyone with this. Unless they are too lazy to listen to the whole thing or think. Again ROMNEY HAS SAID THE SAME THINGS. Infrastructure and education are necessary for success in america... even in business. Do you disagree... Without roads and railroads, without education would we be successful in business? Unless you **** money I don't think so.
    Last edited by flips333; 07-30-2012 at 08:52 AM.

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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliDevil71 View Post
    Dbronco! My main man! First things first my brother!!! GO RAIDER NATION!!!

    D.....Allen West speaks what's on his mind. I have tremendous respect for him. I do share a lot of his views. I am probably going to get slammed on this, because this seems like a pretty hostile crowd up in here, but I've always said government social programs are like a drug. Once you are on it, it's hard ot get off of it. While I know some people need help, and I have no problem helping people. I am not rich, but I am doing better than some, so I don't forget where I came from and try to do as much as I can. But in my opinion, West is saying the hard things to say. You may not agree with it, as I can see here, but I expect to hear that from a leader. He is a little rough around the edges, but he is saying what he feels.

    As for you didn't build that. Obama is not a private sector guy. I think we all know that. He may claim to be, but he isn't. You didn't build that was all about government had something to do with it. It's funny, but I clearly hear this from all of my liberal friends. I remember, before he even said this, some making the same comments months ago. Business owners did build that on their own.....streets, education...etc was paid by tax payer dollars. Which I hope business owners did put into the ante. Probably a lot more than most people. He did mean to say that. Private sector....you didn't get there without government. Government allows you to be successful in this country. That is what I got from his speech. While I think that the private and public sectors both need each other, this man really opened up a hornets nest on this one.. LOL..
    Don't worry, Raider Nation will get a good show when the Broncos whoop up on them.

    I think there is a difference between what Allen West is doing and speaking one's mind. He is moving away from being a straight talker and crossing the line to just being a blowhard. Comparing Social Security and slavery together is very disheartening to hear. We don't have many things taht we should be able to agree on, but I think one of the simple largest eliminators of poverty among the elderly and the horribly abusive treatment of people as property are not akin to one another.

    I can't claim to know what Obama was thinking and maybe my interpretation is filtered by what I believe. But I heard a man saying "congratulations on being successful, but don't forget all the people and institutions that gave way to your success". Which he isn't wrong at all on, there has been a teacher that made us want to learn, a policeman that made us feel safer, a soldier that made us feel even safer, and so many more along the way. We do owe our individual success to our willingness to work at what we do well, but we also owe it to the society and institutions that have set us up to take advantage of our singular abilities.

    As far as the technical, there are two things that have allowed our economy and ourselves to flourish. Those are our inclusive economic institutions (the idea that anyone of us can take advantage of our skills - your private sector) and our inclusive political institutions (the idea that everyone has rights and the ability to hear and be heard in the political arena - your public sector). These two when combined are exactly what I heard Obama say.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    Yes. Alot of people are smart. A lot of people work hard. Success does contain a sense of the random.

    That argument isn't an argument... and it's the same thing that romney is saying.

    Have to modify that statement, Democrats do poorly with working class white men who aren't part of unions. Union members, minority working class hell Jewish working class all vote for the Dems. The rest... I think this sums up why.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...e-conservative

    It also touches on the audacity and elitism that is to the detriment of the democratic party, when liberals say that working class white folk are voting against their self interest by voting for people who share their a great many of their values.
    What does it matter that "success contains an element of the random"?

    But, this is an example of something that I really like about politics, but that still really confuses me.

    Conservatives and liberals just see things differently. See, Obama's comments hit every conservative the same way. You can't get more opposite the conservative ideology than what Obama expressed. So, the conservatives flip out, and start yelling "See, there it is!" But liberals don't even see it. They just go "What? Didn't the government build the roads?" And then the conservatives respond: "Yeah, but look at that ideology." And the liberals respond: "What ideology? He's just stating facts."
    Last edited by gcoll; 07-30-2012 at 10:38 AM.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    What does it matter that "success contains an element of the random"?

    But, this is an example of something that I really like about politics, but that still really confuses me.

    Conservatives and liberals just see things differently. See, Obama's comments hit every conservative the same way. You can't get more opposite the conservative ideology than what Obama expressed. So, the conservatives flip out, and start yelling "See, there it is!" But liberals don't even see it. They just go "What? Didn't the government build the roads?" And then the conservatives respond: "Yeah, but look at that ideology." And the liberals respond: "What ideology? He's just stating facts."
    What matters is that people ignore the fact that it doesn't just take smarts and hard work to be successful.

    Your paragraph might make sense... if not for the fact that Romney has expressed these same points (that education and infrastructure spending are necessary for businesses to be successful). I am talking about two candidates roughly saying the exact same things... and one taking an out of context quote, knowing the issue is simply an ambiguous use of the word that, and using it to create a FALSE distinction between the candidates, when they both actually believe the same thing (again with respect to the necessity of education and infrastructure for business).

    So then I ask... when Romney says the same things: are they just heard differently?

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  5. #95
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    Here is a transcript of that speech.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...anoke-virginia

    This has happened a lot during Obama's first term. He gives an entire speech about raising taxes on anybody making over $250k. And somehow it is spun into him attacking small businesses and people who work hard. So we aren't having a debate about something that is actually being proposes (raising taxes on the wealthy), we are discussing Obama's supposed ideology that he is against private (small) business and wants to tax everybody.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    What matters is that people ignore the fact that it doesn't just take smarts and hard work to be successful.

    Your paragraph might make sense... if not for the fact that Romney has expressed these same points (that education and infrastructure spending are necessary for businesses to be successful). I am talking about two candidates roughly saying the exact same things... and one taking an out of context quote, knowing the issue is simply an ambiguous use of the word that, and using it to create a FALSE distinction between the candidates, when they both actually believe the same thing (again with respect to the necessity of education and infrastructure for business).

    So then I ask... when Romney says the same things: are they just heard differently?
    Because Romney (in the recent comments I have seen) followed it with a "but..."

    And, it's not only an ambiguous use of the word "that." It's a clash of ideology. President Obama is just not a fan of the free market system. That's pretty obvious. Read in full context, it would probably be fair (feel to free to lambast this point) to characterize Obama's statement as "Sure, there are individual factors, but the government creates success" and Romney's as "Sure, there are government factors, but the individual creates success."

    As far as Romney goes...he doesn't understand, or just refuses to defend, the conservative ideology. So, he's not the best source for this type of thing.

    The part I will agree with you on, is the context. The "that" is ambiguous. Read in full context, I think he was most likely referring to the roads and bridges. Otherwise, the point sort of loses a lot of meaning. The Republicans, by focusing on the "that" are being dishonest.
    Last edited by gcoll; 07-30-2012 at 10:11 PM.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    Because Romney (in the recent comments I have seen) followed it with a "but..."

    And, it's not only an ambiguous use of the word "that." It's a clash of ideology. President Obama is just not a fan of the free market system. That's pretty obvious. Read in full context, it would probably be fair (feel to free to lambast this point) to characterize Obama's statement as "Sure, there are individual factors, but the government creates success" and Romney's as "Sure, there are government factors, but the individual creates success."

    As far as Romney goes...he doesn't understand, or just refuses to defend, the conservative ideology. So, he's not the best source for this type of thing.

    Which is one of the reasons conservatives don't really like him. (which is a point for another thread, but worth noting....this is the second election in a row that the Republican party, characterized as moving toward the extreme right, nominated a center-right candidate).
    The truth (and maybe we agree on this) is in between those two statements. I think both of them are saying the same thing. You could argue the percentages ( I would say together they probably account for 40-60% of the variance in success depending on how you operationalize it.). I dont think either would suggest that success lies solely in either individual, governmental, or for that matter random factors.

    This Obama is a socialist crap is crap... I know actual socialists, they don't take conservative ideas from the 90s and try to pass them off as liberal. Both Obama AND Romney are center right candidates. Honestly Romney has been dancing with the far right for the last 2 years but no one really wants to take him to the prom. And Obama wants to be a liberal, but Lets face it he's not. Ever see how close they are on that political compass thing?

    **** I wish this country had been run by McCain and Hillary for the last 12 years. We'd be better off. At least they actually say what they are.

    And as far as this fight between romney and Obama... It is just an ambiguous "that". You want to make it more, have the converstation about the end public of education, end infrastructure spending, let the social conservatives have their way, sure being on that fight that's fight I have no doubt the liberals will win. But this bull ****. This half assed attempt to paint a moderate as some sort of progressive that's just sad, disingenuous, and to be honest probably incredibly viciously smart.
    Last edited by flips333; 07-30-2012 at 10:28 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoon
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    Thisp Obama is a socialist crap is crap... I know actual socialists, they don't take conservative ideas from the 90s and try to pass them off as liberal. Both Obama AND Romney are center right candidates. Honestly Romney has been dancing with the far right for the last 2 years but no one really wants to take him to the prom. And Obama wants to be a liberal, but Lets face it he's not. Ever see how close they are on that political compass thing?

    **** I wish this country had been run by McCain and Hillary for the last 12 years. We'd be better off. At least they actually say what they are.
    But Democrats want everyone on welfare and Republicans want everyone to be over fighting 10 wars at the same time and for the poor to starve. You're not suggesting that the whole left-and-right stuff is insane are you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by flips333
    Thisp Obama is a socialist crap is crap... I know actual socialists, they don't take conservative ideas from the 90s and try to pass them off as liberal. Both Obama AND Romney are center right candidates. Honestly Romney has been dancing with the far right for the last 2 years but no one really wants to take him to the prom. And Obama wants to be a liberal, but Lets face it he's not. Ever see how close they are on that political compass thing?
    Barack Obama is not center right. He's left wing. Not extreme left. But he's solidly left wing.

    And I didn't call him a socialist. Just said he's not a big fan of the free enterprise system, which he isn't. The way to describe Obama, is simply as a liberal. That's what he is. An American liberal. You'll find his ideology on just about every college campus you go to (if you avoid the business school).

    That political compass thing is horse ****.

    Quote Originally Posted by flips333
    And as far as this fight between romney and Obama... It is just an ambiguous "that". You want to make it more, have the converstation about the end public of education, end infrastructure spending, let the social conservatives have their way, sure being on that fight that's fight I have no doubt the liberals will win. But this bull ****. This half assed attempt to paint a moderate as some sort of progressive that's just sad, disingenuous, and to be honest probably smart.
    But that's the straw man. Obama is trying to have that debate, even though nobody on the right is making those points.

    The funniest thing being; a lot of people acknowledge the government has a role to play in infrastructure; but Obama will frequently use the "crumbling roads and bridges" line. Doesn't the fact that the government is failing in one of its most basic functions maybe indicate that it has outgrown its usefulness and needs to be reformed severely?
    Last edited by gcoll; 07-30-2012 at 10:38 PM.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    Barack Obama is not center right. He's left wing. Not extreme left. But he's solidly left wing.

    And I didn't call him a socialist. Just said he's not a big fan of the free enterprise system, which he isn't. The way to describe Obama, is simply as a liberal. That's what he is. An American liberal. You'll find his ideology on just about every college campus you go to (if you avoid the business school).

    That political compass thing is horse ****.


    But that's the straw man. Obama is trying to have that debate, even though nobody on the right is making those points.

    The funniest thing being; a lot of people acknowledge the government has a role to play in infrastructure; but Obama will frequently use the "crumbling roads and bridges" line. Doesn't the fact that the government is failing in one of its most basic functions maybe indicate that it has outgrown its usefulness and needs to be reformed severely?
    The straw man is who Romney wants to debate... the person you say is not a fan of the free market... whatever the **** that is. part of what got us in this mess is the "free market" you can argue all you want but credit default swaps are part of the mess... **** that should have been regulated.

    The fact is that there is actually very little difference between the two in ideology. If left to do what they think was best they would likely do very similar things. Actually we have no clue what either of them would do if left to their own devices... It's the people within with no clue who are driving the wedge in this country.

    The infrastructure is always going to have problems... things get old and you have to fix them... It's no more a sign of failing government than the sky is falling.


    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    But Democrats want everyone on welfare and Republicans want everyone to be over fighting 10 wars at the same time and for the poor to starve. You're not suggesting that the whole left-and-right stuff is insane are you?

    Part of me thinks you are almost being sarcastic here... but I will pretend you are not. In this country the whole left right stuff is kind of insane. Honestly do you think most of the politicians believe it? The left and right are the people, the politicians seem to just be puppets, who in turn try to act as puppetteers to drive the left and right further apart, because this us vs. them attitude is such a better way to get reelected.

    Honestly Congress has a 12% approval rating but we vote the incumbent in what 70% of the time. I'm pretty good with numbers... but you don't have to be pretty good with numbers to see that doesn't add up. That is just dumb.

    I don't think the actual left wants everyone to be on wellfare, and I don't think the actual right wants to actually let a bunch of people not have health care and die out of principal, but people have been convinced that is our choice... our choice is presented as republicans or the crazy socialists on one side and democrats or the crazy conservatives ( who to be honest do have a new little batch of actual honest to goodness crazy folks... Bachman I'm talking to you).... It's a false choice. It's not real. Give me fricking Bob Dole and Ted kennedy working on legislation together...? Can I please have that again? Can I get me some Simpson-Bowles up in this beotch? It's not like I agree with that legislation, but I agree that we should stop waiting to win and do something that will help us move forward. That's the real choice. Are we gonna sit around and yell at each other about **** that we can't change tyring to get them to do it our way, or are we going to accept we can't change the other part of america, the part we hate, and just know that those *******s deserve to be represented by the same government.

    Back to gcoll. Honestly... you didn't say... do you believe the truth, the actual truth lies between those two statements you made? That some combination of individual, and societal factors lead to success? Financial or other wise. Cause if you don't then this is argument between us is hopeless, but if you agree with that then there is hope, because this country is built upon people like you and people like me sitting down and doing something together, taking our passionate beliefs and accepting some of the others ideas. Because ya know what... I don't agree with pretty much anything you say, pretty much ever, but I would do some of what you suggest if it meant that some of what I think we should do gets done... even though neither believes a drop of what the other is saying. That is america. That is representative democracy, where all are represented. Not what we have devolved into, at this point I either want that or just split the ****ing country up already and settle it with economic war. let new yorkers and californians be as liberal as they are, and let texans and alabamans be as conservative as they are... and if ya don't like it move.

    Perhaps I have imbibed too many jalapeno margaritas... cause I'm feeling spicy tonight.
    Last edited by flips333; 07-30-2012 at 11:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flips333
    The straw man is who Romney wants to debate... the person you say is not a fan of the free market... whatever the **** that is.
    It's just "progressivism" is all it is. "Diet socialism" is what I'd call it.

    I mean Obama doesn't have one idea that isn't centered around a big government philosophy.

    Neither does Romney, for that matter, so you have a point.

    Libertarianism, my friend. The way of the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by flips333
    part of what got us in this mess is the "free market" you can argue all you want but credit default swaps are part of the mess... **** that should have been regulated.
    I have long held that the people on the right who ignore the role that deregulation played ignore a large part of the story.

    But the liberals who ignore the role that "affordable housing for all" played also ignore a big part of the story.

    And again. I acknowledge that the free market has its flaws. Present me with the perfect alternative, and I will gladly support that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    But Democrats want everyone on welfare and Republicans want everyone to be over fighting 10 wars at the same time and for the poor to starve. You're not suggesting that the whole left-and-right stuff is insane are you?
    D....the poor is still starving.....no matter how much money you throw at them.......how much is when you finally say enough, this isn't working, let's revaluate what is going on.......

    As for fighting 10 wars....come on you serious.....

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Don't worry, Raider Nation will get a good show when the Broncos whoop up on them.

    I think there is a difference between what Allen West is doing and speaking one's mind. He is moving away from being a straight talker and crossing the line to just being a blowhard. Comparing Social Security and slavery together is very disheartening to hear. We don't have many things taht we should be able to agree on, but I think one of the simple largest eliminators of poverty among the elderly and the horribly abusive treatment of people as property are not akin to one another.

    I can't claim to know what Obama was thinking and maybe my interpretation is filtered by what I believe. But I heard a man saying "congratulations on being successful, but don't forget all the people and institutions that gave way to your success". Which he isn't wrong at all on, there has been a teacher that made us want to learn, a policeman that made us feel safer, a soldier that made us feel even safer, and so many more along the way. We do owe our individual success to our willingness to work at what we do well, but we also owe it to the society and institutions that have set us up to take advantage of our singular abilities.

    As far as the technical, there are two things that have allowed our economy and ourselves to flourish. Those are our inclusive economic institutions (the idea that anyone of us can take advantage of our skills - your private sector) and our inclusive political institutions (the idea that everyone has rights and the ability to hear and be heard in the political arena - your public sector). These two when combined are exactly what I heard Obama say.
    Hey now...don't let Manning go to your head now. He is one good hit away from retirement (God forbid, I'm actally a Manning fan and I don't want him to end it that way). Then what you do you guys have on the bench....is that Brady Quinn over there holding that clipboard??? LOL....

    Look, of course nobody who has become successful had did it on their own. It's how this man said it. He is arrogant and he believes government is your Daddy. My uncle became very successful with hardly any education. He did it with a mentor (business owner), determination and hardwork. I wasn't very educated and there wasn't a policeman or teacher who drove me to my success. It was my Uncle who was uneducated and got where he got on hard work. Sorry, I just don't buy that. But when you look at it, a of course an independent trucker is going to buy a truck from a business who sells them. And the truck salesman bought the truck from a factory who bulit them and etc......of course he is going to rent a shop that was builty by a contractor and so on....it's called capitalism. It's called being in business. But I did hear his speech, like I try to do everytime the President speaks, but the bottom line is I don't buy it. This man is big government bro.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliDevil71 View Post
    Hey now...don't let Manning go to your head now. He is one good hit away from retirement (God forbid, I'm actally a Manning fan and I don't want him to end it that way). Then what you do you guys have on the bench....is that Brady Quinn over there holding that clipboard??? LOL....

    Look, of course nobody who has become successful had did it on their own. It's how this man said it. He is arrogant and he believes government is your Daddy. My uncle became very successful with hardly any education. He did it with a mentor (business owner), determination and hardwork. I wasn't very educated and there wasn't a policeman or teacher who drove me to my success. It was my Uncle who was uneducated and got where he got on hard work. Sorry, I just don't buy that. But when you look at it, a of course an independent trucker is going to buy a truck from a business who sells them. And the truck salesman bought the truck from a factory who bulit them and etc......of course he is going to rent a shop that was builty by a contractor and so on....it's called capitalism. It's called being in business. But I did hear his speech, like I try to do everytime the President speaks, but the bottom line is I don't buy it. This man is big government bro.....
    I believe Adam Weber will be holding the board when its all said and done. Caleb Hanie is listed as our #2.

    Do you believe that Mitt Romney was arrogant when he said something very similar?

    “You [removed], however, know you didn’t get here solely on your own power. For most of you, loving parents, sisters or brothers, encouraged your hopes, coaches guided, communities built venues in order to organize [removed]. All [removed] stand on the shoulders of those who lifted them. We’ve already cheered the [removed], let’s also cheer the parents, coaches, and communities. All right!”

    I removed some of the words to make it more generic, but Romney has said roughly the same thing and I don't hear anyone calling him arrogant. Here is the context for the above quote.

    In your specific example, no policemen and firemen don't drive us to success. But consider for a moment that in 3rd world countries you don't have the freedom of invest your capital without risk that it will be plundered from you by either the government or someone who feels so bold as to take your property from you. In this country, you have that mobility and protection because of the government. They ensure that what is yours is not taken unjustly and if someone does take something that you have legal recourse to reclaim it.

    I don't see a distrust of capitalism at its core in Obama or the Democratic party. I know I don't distrust the principles. I have qualms (I think I get a triple word score) with some of it at the fringes and some minor tweaks where I think the government has a role in our society and hence I support a mixed economy.
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    Missed this comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by flips333
    Back to gcoll. Honestly... you didn't say... do you believe the truth, the actual truth lies between those two statements you made? That some combination of individual, and societal factors lead to success?
    Well, it's tough to succeed in a failed state.

    And the better off economically your country is, the easier it is to live well.

    But, what makes a country better off economically in the first place?

    The government building roads can help reduce transaction costs and does help, but that is not a driving factor. The driving factor is the free market; separate individuals pursuing their own self interest. That's what drives prosperity. The profit motive is probably the thing that has done the most good for the most amount of people in terms of increasing the standard of living and decreasing poverty.

    So, there is a LIMITED role for government to play. Still a role. And that point really doesn't explain differential success between people from the same place. If I start a business that succeeds, and my neighbor starts a business that fails....giving credit to the roads makes no sense.

    And, you have to take into account the harm that government does. Look at our public education system. It ****s over so many kids. You don't live in the right area code, you may be doomed to go to a **** school. Look at the amount of harm the drug war has done. Try to start and or grow a business, watch how quickly the government comes down on you.
    Last edited by gcoll; 07-31-2012 at 10:31 AM.

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