I am not trying to say any of this will happen. I asked about it since I have read some things suggesting it (nothing official, just ideas).
If Im not mistaken, you have one of the worst Pens in the league. I think there is a good chance you pursure Vargas and or League. Jeffy said so before too.
What about Vargas, League and Triunfel for Adams, Rosenthal and a throw in arm or bench type guy.
That would be trade rape and I would throw myself out of a window if that happened.
Why? You dont need Adams. He will end up sitting on the bench behind Craig.
Look at what the Cubs got for half a year of a 35 year old. A top top prospect.
There are a lot of doubts about Adams. Obviously Vargas isnt in the same class as Dempster, but neither is Adams to Delgado. Not by a long shot.
BTW, make sure you know who Truinfel is. 22 yr old SS who is hitting well in AAA.
That isn't a horrible deal for the Cards, but it doesn't improve us like it would appear it does.
Give us Franklin instead of Triunfel, and we'll give you Jenkins
League, Vargas, and Franklin for Adams and Jenkins
(improve your spec, improve ours)
And I would do that. It helps us enough now, and for next year that I would be happy with what we got back.
But I am not as crazy about getting Vargas as I am more-so guessing that Moz wants him, not that I want him.
You get two cost controlled players for one, and we get two guys that are coming up on free agency and last year of arb (respectively)
Vargas is basically the same as Kelly, but Kelly would be better out of the pen.
This makes our rotation
Not very pretty, but it will do.
Then a pen of
C - Motte
R - League
R - Boggs
L - Scrabble
L - Browning/Fuentes
R - Rosenthall
R - Kelly
R - Salas/Sanchez
Franklin takes short next season, he will be ready.
I would do it, but only because I want Franklin and we would marginally improve for the rest of this season and because I don't care to keep Adams enough, Franklin would be a lot more valuable to us.
You will notice I took off Rosenthall, I would take someone else in his place if push came to shove in negotiations to not be insulting, like a 24 year old in A-AA ball.
Cards Sig Game (ranks right after list)
11-4 (18 starts)1st
3.2 fWAR 1st
5.1 rWAR 1st
There's no way Franklin goes in that deal tho. He is a better prospect than Adams and Jenkins.
Vargas isn't as much of a mirage as it seems. He can be at times, but he has pitched well in hitters parks also.
Plus, It looks as tho Jenkins is being scouted by the mariners already, so I don't think Franklin would need to be involved for him to go.
It may be better for the Ms, but I don't think it is "trade rape" either.
Jenkins and Adams are both borderline top 100's (Jenkins has remained top 100 for almost two years, Adams has remained about 110)
This deal is a lot closer to being realistic IMO than the one your proposed earlier. Mainly because Truinfel is looking more like a utility player as a big leaguer, rather than as a shortstop you can bank on.
Truinfel isn't even a top 20 spec to the M's.
Cards Sig Game (ranks right after list)
11-4 (18 starts)1st
3.2 fWAR 1st
5.1 rWAR 1st
As far the argument that we don't need Adams, that doens't mean we should just give him away for something like that. We could easily package Adams and more for better players, who could be an upgrade over adding 2 minimal to no upgrades.
Now, guys like Wilhelmson, Shawn Kelley, Luetge. If you wanna do one of those guys. We put in Adams. You put in a prospect with potential but not an all star. We put in prospect with Potential but not an all star, maybe a Tyrell Jenkins if the Mariners put in a solid prospect to. and I'd do the deal. That is a really good improvement to our bullpen. It gives you guys a future at first base or DH with very good power, most likely double's and RBI guy in your stadium. It gives up another really good piece to our bullpen. Both guys would be young and give them teams a few years of team control.
That's an upgrade, and someone who would be worth trading a top prospect for. Not a guy like League or Vargas.
The problem is, we don't need Vargas and League, they don't upgrade us. They could help someone else alot. But not us.
Last edited by Skippy15; 07-24-2012 at 11:07 AM.
FYI, League is much better than Shawn Kelly.
I think you guys are over valuing your players even more than I am.
In what way does giving up a top 40 prospect in this deal make it better? A mid rotation starter, a reliever who has been great in the past and just as good since being removed from closer, and a top 35 SS for an almost top 100 1B and RHP?
Franklin by himself is worth more than Jenkins and Adams together, or at least close.
Personally I think your over valuing your players more than anyone who has come in here doing this before.
You want to trade us Vargas who you say "Vargas isn't as much of a mirage as it seems. He can be at times, but he has pitched well in hitters parks also." You do realize we play in the NL central right? He would have to start games at Great American, Wrigley and Miller park where home runs fly out of on pop flys in Great American and if the wind is blowing just a little out in Wrigley the ball will fly out. The ball just carries well at Miller and out it goes. Vargas has given up 25 home runs this year. That's WAY to much. Plus. like I've said all along, We have a guy as good as Vargas already with Kelly, Why would we trade for Vargas when we have Kelly doing as well or even better? It's not an upgrade it's a lateral move. He has no true value for us.
Brandon League is a guy who looking at his splits a little more closely has been really good after a rough May and I would probably take him. But am I giving up a guy like Adams straight for a relief pitcher? No. Adams has to much potential to give up for a relief pitcher alone. You wanna add another piece? sure. Wanna add a guy like Jenkins and we will add more of our top prospects and we can have a deal made probably.
But Vargas has no real value to this team, he probably does some where else, but not here. It's just not a good fit, we have something better and this would be a bad place for him to pitch when you look at our whole division. Brandon League I was mistaken on by looking at only his 2012 season and his splits vs lefties and righties not his month to month. That was my mistake.
Don't be surprised though if Vargas ends up with the Cardinals, It would be a terrible deal by MO but he has some interest in adding a starter and I wouldn't be surprised to see him just go get a guy who eats innings and who's the cheapest
There have been rumors that you are interested in Vargas, so I don't think it is that crazy like you think.
Proven MLB players are much more valuable than prospects. Especially when you have guys that can replace Adams and play better.
Jenkins is rated higher than Adams, and there were rumors of him.
Pitching beats hitting the the playoffs. That's why the Rangers have lost twice in a row, once to the Giants who had little offense.
Of course pitching is what gets you rings in October. But GOOD pitching. Vargas is an average pitcher. We'd be in as good or better shape with Kelly or Dickson in the rotation as we would Vargas, like I've said. He's a lateral move, decent pitch, good on some staffs, not an upgrade on ours though.
On a more important subject though, the cards were scouting the marlins last night, most likely Josh Johnson who the marlins are actively shopping. Guy has injury history but could be a major upgrade to our rotation
Vargas is better than either of those guys.
Is everyone in here a huge homer? Just because they are on the Cards doesn't mean they are good.
What If I said Shelby miller won't be any more than a number 3 starter? I bet you guys will flip. He hasn't been than impressive in the minors, especially this year.
Actually we have all talked that it's very possible that's what miller ends up being so I guess you fail on that one lol
If you don't like what we the trade you brought go find a contender who would want Vargas and see what they think Vargas is worth. It's hilarious because your calling people in here homers because we know our prospects and don't think giving them up for a guy who gives up to many home runs, close to 3 walks per game, And only 6 strike outs per game. He's an average pitcher at best. We have 2 pitchers who can be average pitchers at best, so why trade Matt Adams, who could very well be a great MLB hitter for a league average pitched that we already have 2 of? Vargas has only slightly better than a Rookie pitcher and Vargas is a 7 year vet. How is it a smart trade at all? Potential all star for average pitcher who would probably be worse pitching away from safeco field? Nothing about it makes sense.
Your bringing a 5th starter in and trying to sell him as a number 3 when it's simply not true. I'm sorry but it is what it is. You think you got something really worth trading for potential pieces and you don't with Vargas. Nothing about the deal makes sense for us to take on Vargas for Adams