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  1. #1
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    Tommy Pham: “The front office, I can’t entirely say they were on my side,”

    https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/04/02/to...low_twitter_si

    Not really sure where else to post this but this SI article that came out about Pham today is an very interesting read. Dude has the biggest chip on his shoulder ever, and i can kinda get why.

    And i'm curious how the clubhouse feels about this. He indirectly takes shots at several teammates, most who are gone now but a few still in the club.

    For the most part though, i love this article and the intensity he brings

  2. #2
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    I'm sorry, but the organization stuck with Pham when most organizations would have flat out given up.

    The dude had the talent, but good lord he had a ton of injuries. Most organizations would have sent him home.

    How many organizations stick with a guy, like after 2012 for Pham? Hurt in AA at the age of 24 and played poorly. He showed some life in A+ and AA the year prior, but again, injury shortened, and he was bad prior to that.

    They stuck with him, and they deserve credit for that. Guys like Pham are usually dropped from their organization after 5-6 years in the minors. The team stuck with him, even though his development was completely over taken by injuries.


    Pham carries a chip on his shoulder. It's always him against the world. Everybody is always against him, and he is always the victim that has to rise up. That's his personality. But he slams the one organization that gave him a shot. They deserve the rewards that the game creates to incentivize teams to give guys like Pham a shot (6 years of MLB control).


    Does he wanna know why Piscotty and Grichuk were given shot before him?

    Let's look at the entrance of the 2015 season:

    2014 numbers
    Piscotty - age 23 - level AAA - 556 PA - .288/.355/.406 - 9 HR, 11 SB
    Grichuk - age 22 - level AAA - 472 PA - .259/.311/.493 - 25 HR, 8 SB (116 solid PA in the MLB)
    Pham - age 26 - level AAA - 390 PA - .324/.395/.491 - 10 HR, 20 SB

    I'm sorry Pham, but you were 3 years older than Piscotty and 4 years older than Grichuk. Of ****ing course they were going to get the first shot.


    Pham has no one to blame but his injuries for his delayed call up and delayed service time. Dude has dealt with injuries every time he has had an opportunity.

    Then through 2015, Pham got just short of 200 PA in AAA and MLB, and was solid in both areas, but again, injury shortened.
    Piscotty put up basically the same numbers, but wasn't hurt...and again, 3 years younger
    Grichuk put up better numbers, wasn't hurt, and again, 4 years younger.

    Then, entering 2016, he breaks camp with the team and gets hurt on Opening Day....then proceeds to have a .769 OPS while Piscotty gives a full season with a .800 OPS and Grichuk gives a full season at the same .769 OPS but with so much more power in his bat.


    As diehard as a Cards fan as I am, I wanted the team to let Piscotty play 2016 in right, and let Grichuk and Pham share center in 2016 letting the better performer get the most PA. But Pham kept getting hurt.



    He has sour grapes, and he's flat out wrong here.


    As far as batting in the 8 hole behind the guy from High A?
    He only hit 8th twice in his Cardinal career. His first and third games in the big leagues. Game 1 he hit behind Grichuk. Game 3 he hit behind Sierra who went 1 for 6, and then hit 8th after that. But that's a Matheny issue.



    Pham is flat out wrong here. He wants someone to blame but himself. But he is yelling at the wrong person. It's a competitive league, and he kept getting hurt while similar, but younger players weren't. Blame your body, not the Cardinals. They kept giving you chances.

  3. #3
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    First off... I don't believe a single team in MLB would have given up on Pham. He just had WAY too much potential. The Cardinals certainly wanted him to succeed, and were doing what was best for the organization.


    Secondly... You are right that injuries were the real delay in his career. The Cardinals needed to find guys who would play 160 games a year. Pham wasn't that guy. Do you want a guy with .300/.400/.500 that only plays 100 games or a guy with .290/.380/.470, but will give you 160?


    It really sucks for Pham though, because he is now hosed for his career. He'll never get a major contract. He'll be lucky to make 100mil in earnings for his career.


    I honestly believe that they will change the rules. You get 6 years of control, or until the player turns 30 before he becomes an UFA.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tkais9009 View Post
    https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/04/02/to...low_twitter_si

    Not really sure where else to post this but this SI article that came out about Pham today is an very interesting read. Dude has the biggest chip on his shoulder ever, and i can kinda get why.

    And i'm curious how the clubhouse feels about this. He indirectly takes shots at several teammates, most who are gone now but a few still in the club.

    For the most part though, i love this article and the intensity he brings
    How can he blame the FO for him getting hurt 3/4 years in a row? Of course they are going to give the younger guys the opportunity first, because they are more valuable. Hopefully this doesn't become a problem, but I guarantee you this will rub the locker room the wrong way.
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obabikon View Post
    First off... I don't believe a single team in MLB would have given up on Pham. He just had WAY too much potential. The Cardinals certainly wanted him to succeed, and were doing what was best for the organization.


    Secondly... You are right that injuries were the real delay in his career. The Cardinals needed to find guys who would play 160 games a year. Pham wasn't that guy. Do you want a guy with .300/.400/.500 that only plays 100 games or a guy with .290/.380/.470, but will give you 160?


    It really sucks for Pham though, because he is now hosed for his career. He'll never get a major contract. He'll be lucky to make 100mil in earnings for his career.


    I honestly believe that they will change the rules. You get 6 years of control, or until the player turns 30 before he becomes an UFA.
    Yea poor guy...comes from nothing and is making an awful 400k-500k a year. May only make around 50-60 million in his career IF he stays healthy, which who knows if he can. He's bitter. Honestly, that is a slap in the face of this organization that has stuck it out with him. I would honestly trade him. Wash your hands clean of this guy who is never going to live up to what he did last year. What a baby.
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  6. #6
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    I like the fact that he had the balls to say what he thinks. Few players do that, especially cardinals players it seems like. I don’t like the negative repercussions this could have on the club overall though.

    Very mixed feelings haha

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Yea poor guy...comes from nothing and is making an awful 400k-500k a year. May only make around 50-60 million in his career IF he stays healthy, which who knows if he can. He's bitter. Honestly, that is a slap in the face of this organization that has stuck it out with him. I would honestly trade him. Wash your hands clean of this guy who is never going to live up to what he did last year. What a baby.

    If you were in a business that everyone around you is inferior to you, but is making 20-30 times your salary, you wouldn't be upset? Pham has 3 years of Arbitration after this season. He'll be 33 entering his first contract IF he plays well enough to deserve a contract. He has to be set for life after his baseball days are over. His sister is a bartender in Vegas... she has a son, and he takes care of both of them. Making 500k per year, with no guarantees is not a good spot to be in. If he blows out his knee... he's done. ACL... done. Then he does what? Goes back to school to get an education, and try to get a normal job at the age of 31?

    The Cardinals on the other hand offered him a 2 year contract this year. Probably for 8-9 million.

    Meanwhile... last year Tommy Pham was worth close to 50 million dollars to the Cardinals Organization.


    I can see why he's frustrated with them. They have shown very little faith or appreciation in Pham. If they had approached him and offered him a 4 or 5 year contract... I'm sure he would have a different tone. The only thing the Cardinals have done is draft him, and not cut him. By the way... he had WAY too much potential to cut.


    Hell The cards just gave Paul DeJong a long term contract after his season, but not Pham? The Cardinals are looking out for themselves by not offering Pham a longer contract. They're taking advantage of the service time to maximize value. They don't care about the players... they care about the organization's bottom line and ability to be competitive. Which is great... but don't act like they've done Pham any favors.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obabikon View Post
    If you were in a business that everyone around you is inferior to you, but is making 20-30 times your salary, you wouldn't be upset? Pham has 3 years of Arbitration after this season. He'll be 33 entering his first contract IF he plays well enough to deserve a contract. He has to be set for life after his baseball days are over. His sister is a bartender in Vegas... she has a son, and he takes care of both of them. Making 500k per year, with no guarantees is not a good spot to be in. If he blows out his knee... he's done. ACL... done. Then he does what? Goes back to school to get an education, and try to get a normal job at the age of 31?

    The Cardinals on the other hand offered him a 2 year contract this year. Probably for 8-9 million.

    Meanwhile... last year Tommy Pham was worth close to 50 million dollars to the Cardinals Organization.


    I can see why he's frustrated with them. They have shown very little faith or appreciation in Pham. If they had approached him and offered him a 4 or 5 year contract... I'm sure he would have a different tone. The only thing the Cardinals have done is draft him, and not cut him. By the way... he had WAY too much potential to cut.


    Hell The cards just gave Paul DeJong a long term contract after his season, but not Pham? The Cardinals are looking out for themselves by not offering Pham a longer contract. They're taking advantage of the service time to maximize value. They don't care about the players... they care about the organization's bottom line and ability to be competitive. Which is great... but don't act like they've done Pham any favors.
    What does a 5 year contract even look like to Pham though?

    League minimum pay for 2018, then three years of arbitration with maybe 60 homers and 50 stolen bases and a .280/.380/.500 career slash as a CFer. That's basically A.J. Pollock who is getting $7.75M in his final year of arbitration

    I'll guess on the arb pay outs

    2018 - $1,500,000 instead of league minimum
    2019 - $3,000,000 instead of $3,000,000
    2020 - $5,500,000 instead of $6,000,000
    2021 - $8,500,000 instead of $9,000,000
    would be free agent
    2022 - $12,000,000
    Team option with $2,000,000 buy-out
    2023 - $12,000,000

    That's a minimum of $32,500,000 promised to him. And a max of about $42,500,000.

    There is really no reason for the organization to take that sort of risk for what very well could be a one year wonder/breakout for a guy with 10 years of consistent injuries and his first year where he got 500+ PA was last year.

    Pham can say he wants to bet on himself all he wants, it's unlikely he'll earn that much in his career any way. He can bet that he enters free agency with 5 fully healthy seasons in a row and turns into a perennial 30/30 guy. But those chances are incredibly unlikely.

    I imagine the Cardinals may have approached something like this, but there is no reason for the Cardinals to take on so much risk with him. He has no control and they have control over him for the next 4 years.



    Yes, he had a ton of potential while in the minors, but so have a ton of other guys. Entering 2013, Pham was in a huge mix of guys on the depth chart. We have other players like that right now, and it's easy to ignore them at this point.


    Is Pham honestly going to make more than $50,000,000 in his career? He needs to turn the next 4 years into .300/.390/.525 - 30 HR, 30 SB while playing centerfield to possibly think he's going to do better than that.

    And again, there is no reason for the Cards to risk that at this point. Take him year to year, who cares how mad he gets. Be mad at the system, not the organization. Let him play with a chip.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 04-03-2018 at 10:39 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obabikon View Post
    They don't care about the players... they care about the organization's bottom line and ability to be competitive. Which is great... but don't act like they've done Pham any favors.
    Chris Carpenter
    Adam Wainwright
    Yadier Molina
    Tried to with Pujols

    They reward a handful of guys, but for the most part, it's about being consistently competitive.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    I'll guess on the arb pay outs

    2018 - $1,500,000 instead of league minimum
    2019 - $3,000,000 instead of $3,000,000
    2020 - $5,500,000 instead of $6,000,000
    2021 - $8,500,000 instead of $9,000,000
    I'm not sure how you're guessing Arbitration numbers, but Kris Bryant just got 10.85 mil for his first year arb contract.

    I'm not saying Pham is Bryant, but he certainly is worth 3/4ths of it. AJ Pollock had one good season, and even that was nowhere close to Pham's stats. If Pham puts together a season similar to last year's... he will get a big raise.

    7 mil, 10 mil, and 14 mil... at the bottom end of my estimates. Assuming he puts together another 6 WAR season.


    All four of the players you mentioned made the Cardinals much more financially than they paid. The Cardinals give advanced contracts for discounts. That's why they were unsuccessful with Pujols.

  11. #11
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    This made me dislike Pham. He’s a punk
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obabikon View Post
    I'm not sure how you're guessing Arbitration numbers, but Kris Bryant just got 10.85 mil for his first year arb contract.
    Well yeah, Bryant had a Rookie of the Year, MVP, and 19.7 rWAR....and a career .288/.388/.527

    He compares well to Pollock who went
    $3.5
    $6.75
    $7.75
    With some injuries in there
    total - $18.45

    Prior to his first year of arb he was at .294/.347/.464 - 37 HR, 66 SB, 146 RBI, and he signed a two year deal for $10.25M

    Then, entering his last year of arbitration, .286/.343/.464 - 53 HR, 199 RBI, 90 SB and 17.5 rWAR

    I don't know how much better Pham's career numbers will look when he enters arbitration.

    Though, it's difficult to find an older CFer that is productive to compare him to. Pham obviously has the superior OBP, but arb numbers still care about traditional numbers for some reason.

    Cutch's arb pay out was $4.5, $7.25, $10 - $21.75 (agreed to a long term deal while young)
    Springer's arb pay out was $3.9, $12, $12 - $24.9 (they front loaded him a bit in an extension)
    Cain's arb pay out was $2.725, $6.5, $11 - $20.225 (might be one of the better comps)
    Adam Jones' arb pay out was $3.25, $6.15, $8.5 - $17.9 (was a while ago)
    Charlie Blackmon's arb pay out was $3.5, $7.3, $14 - $24.8 (last season is coming off a break out year)


    Of course each of these guys took varying degrees of extensions or agreed to buy out some of their free agency, so they are all skewed a bit, and no one player is a perfect match. But if you aggregate them, and project Pham to play 125 games each year, it's hard to see him topping $20M through the arbitration process, at which point the guy is already 33.

    Even if we are generous, I doubt he is looking much better than $4, $8, and $12 if healthy through the arb process. And that would see him making more than a lot of very good players in arbitration. He'd need some top 3 MVP finishes to change that number dramatically.



    7 mil, 10 mil, and 14 mil... at the bottom end of my estimates. Assuming he puts together another 6 WAR season.
    Fwiw, that would put him second to only Trout among centerfield arbitration numbers of all-time.

    If that's your bottom end, I think you'll be surprised how cheap he ends up being.
    I'm good with 4, 8, 12 as my assumption.

    Players are supposed to get 20, then 40, then 60% of their realistic free agency dollars in arbitration. This is assuming that Tommy Pham is a $20M free agent player.

    Not his value via WAR/$. But rather what he'd actually get in annual free agency in his free agent year.

  13. #13
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    The problem is, there are a lot more $20 million dollar players now than there were 2-3 years ago. If he was a FA right now... after the year he had last year, I would guess he would get 5 - 110mil, or something in that range.


    Now, if he has a year like he had last year, the odds of him being in the top 3 in MVP voting go up. I would agree that he can't have a down year if he wants some major numbers. That's his point though... he isn't going to bet against himself.


    Charlie Blackmon... if he had a season like Pham's his 2nd and 3rd year in the bigs, his numbers would have gone up a ton. He's probably the most comparable for the last year of Arbitration. His 14mil shows what back to back phenomenal years will get you. However, going into his first year of arbitration... Blackmon got 3.5 mil, and was nowhere near the player. He had a WAR of 2.5, OPS under .800, never even sniffed a SLG of .500.... he'd never had a year that would suggest he was going to be a breakout player.

    So, it isn't a stretch by any means to say that Pham should be well above 3.5 mil for his first ARB.


    If Pham plays 155 games this year, at last year's level or higher... he will get at least 6 mil next year.

  14. #14
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    I'm obviously on Pham's side in all this, but why would anyone dislike him over his stance?

    He felt he was better than Piscotty and Grichuk. For the record, he was right. He was/is frustrated that the Cardinals didn't see that. Can't really blame him. Maybe he's supposed to sit in the corner and just be quiet? He felt wronged by the organization. I would much rather him voice his concerns, versus just keep quiet. At least now the Cardinals know how he feels. I understand why they went with younger guys that didn't have the injuries... but that doesn't change the fact that someone got slighted. If they want to try to make it up to him with a long term contract, I'm sure he'll listen. However... he certainly is not giving them discounts on a 2 year deal. Asking him to do so when he's already going to be a 33 year old FA is offensive.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    I would honestly trade him. Wash your hands clean of this guy who is never going to live up to what he did last year. What a baby.
    Trading 6+ WAR players with 4 seasons of control left is what horrible GM's do... and how a team ends up with a consistent losing record.

    The only CFer that would be remotely close to Pham's value would be George Springer... and that's still a downgrade plus giving up 2 years of control.

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