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  1. #46
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    First, No thanks on semin. Commonsense, I agree hes not worth the cap hit but he will get it somewhere, hopefully its not from Glenn. Olie Jokenin got 2 years 4.5, PAP got 4 years 4 or 4.5, Jagr at 40 got 4.5. So I think he gets it, hope its not from us.

    Second, that hockeyyinsiderr guy is rumored to be another fraud. One of the agents blasted him last week saying he has no idea who he is but when looking for info from him so him and the guys at the office made up some stuff and laughed their *ss off when he posted it. Im pretty sure Dregar called him out the other day. So unless he nails a big story, I take what he says lightly. He gave 5% chance Parise/Suter sign together. Suter was 95% going to detroit and Parise 90% going to Pitt. 95% and 90% could have been flipped with teams and players, I dont recall.

    As for Nash and what is given up for him. The standard first round pick, which a late roun pick anyway, dont care about that. I have no problem giving up all the players that BSI listed, plus Miller. The only player he listed as being not moved that Im torn on is Stepan. Id like to keep him because of chemistry. But who does Gordie think is better him or Miller? I prefer Miller goes since hes not in the lineup yet. I know Stepan is young but how many centers in his age range are better? How many are older that will be around for awhile are better and how many younger are better. Basically how high do you guys rate him league wide. Its easier to replace a second line center then a true top line winger. Thats why hes the hard decision for me.
    Last edited by Isca92; 07-09-2012 at 10:46 PM.

  2. #47
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    Commonsense, heres my problem with Dubi. Yes overpaid. But I dont think him and cally can be on the same team. Both are second line wingers but neither has the scoring touch to play on the same line. They may score 30 but that doesnt make them 30 goal scorers. They cant be relied on to be the second punch. Just like Clarkson the 30 goal scorer for the Devils last season did nothing in the playoffs. 4 million is to much for a third line winger and Kreider and Hags or player traded for knock him down to the third line. So I think he has value just not enough to keep him on this team.

    Also, I wanted no part in Spezza either. Let me know what you think of my Datsyuk/Nash comparison in the other tread. We dont usually disagree but we do have some decent conversations regarding difference of opinions.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isca92 View Post
    First, No thanks on semin. Commonsense, I agree hes not worth the cap hit but he will get it somewhere, hopefully its not from Glenn. Olie Jokenin got 2 years 4.5, PAP got 4 years 4 or 4.5, Jagr at 40 got 4.5. So I think he gets it, hope its not from us.

    Second, that hockeyyinsiderr guy is rumored to be another fraud. One of the agents blasted him last week saying he has no idea who he is but when looking for info from him so him and the guys at the office made up some stuff and laughed their *ss off when he posted it. Im pretty sure Dregar called him out the other day. So unless he nails a big story, I take what he says lightly. He gave 5% chance Parise/Suter sign together. Suter was 95% going to detroit and Parise 90% going to Pitt. 95% and 90% could have been flipped with teams and players, I dont recall.

    As for Nash and what is given up for him. The standard first round pick, which a late roun pick anyway, dont care about that. I have no problem giving up all the players that BSI listed, plus Miller. The only player he listed as being not moved that Im torn on is Stepan. Id like to keep him because of chemistry. But who does Gordie think is better him or Miller? I prefer Miller goes since hes not in the lineup yet. I know Stepan is young but how many centers in his age range are better? How many are older that will be around for awhile are better and how many younger are better. Basically how high do you guys rate him league wide. Its easier to replace a second line center then a true top line winger. Thats why hes the hard decision for me.
    I have to disagree with you again. First PAP was better then Semin last year and had more pts then him on a not so good islander team. Jagr deal was for 1 yr. I would have no prob signing Semin for a year at that cap hit. They prob had around the same production last year. Lastly the Ollie deal is another deal in which ollie was better then Semin last year. Its another short deal of 2 yrs and its Winn. They arent exactly a huge free agent destination so i think they have to overpay a little. Either way all those deals are short minus PAP and thats probably because PAP was simply better then Semin last year. Again if we gave Semin the same contract as any of them i would take it. He just costs money and not a whole lot of it. If he doesnt work out in NY we simply trade him for an upgrade. He doesnt cost us the farm.

    BTW i really dont follow hockey insider. There has just been so many tweets and such about what Howson is asking for I dont think its a secret. The writting is on the wall that if he doesnt improve the team and soon he is going to get fired. Thats why he is asking for the moon on his only really good trade chip.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isca92 View Post
    Commonsense, heres my problem with Dubi. Yes overpaid. But I dont think him and cally can be on the same team. Both are second line wingers but neither has the scoring touch to play on the same line. They may score 30 but that doesnt make them 30 goal scorers. They cant be relied on to be the second punch. Just like Clarkson the 30 goal scorer for the Devils last season did nothing in the playoffs. 4 million is to much for a third line winger and Kreider and Hags or player traded for knock him down to the third line. So I think he has value just not enough to keep him on this team.

    Also, I wanted no part in Spezza either. Let me know what you think of my Datsyuk/Nash comparison in the other tread. We dont usually disagree but we do have some decent conversations regarding difference of opinions.
    We agree Dubi is overpaid. I disagree with you about Dubi and Cally on the same team. For awhile they had some good chemistry when AA was centering them. I think you and I will also disagree what a 3rd line has to be made up of. I think most people think a 3rd line has to be more of a grinding line and thats what i disagree with. If we have players on our first and 2nd lines that grind why cant we have a more skilled 3rd line? Our 4th line is going to be all grinders plus we have guys that can hit (not terribly hard lol) on our top 2 lines (cally, Kreider, AA and maybe Dubi if he makes 2nd line). If we drop these guys to a 3rd line and pair them with Hags i dont see anything wrong with that but i wouldnt care if they were on the top 2 lines and we had more skilled players on the 3rd line. It all depends on what we can get and for what price.

    Also Jordan Staal was making 4 mill and he was a great 3rd line player. Granted he got traded but he still played that role for yrs. I think if we have ELC players playing in the top 2 lines (like we do) we can afford to pay more for 3rd line players if we have too. I obviously prefer more top end talent but i would rather pay someone in FA and get them for just money rather then gut this team and fill in holes. Stars dont win championships otherwise we would have won the cup every year from 98-the lockout.

    What thread was the Nash/Dats comparison?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isca92 View Post
    First, No thanks on semin. Commonsense, I agree hes not worth the cap hit but he will get it somewhere, hopefully its not from Glenn. Olie Jokenin got 2 years 4.5, PAP got 4 years 4 or 4.5, Jagr at 40 got 4.5. So I think he gets it, hope its not from us.

    Second, that hockeyyinsiderr guy is rumored to be another fraud. One of the agents blasted him last week saying he has no idea who he is but when looking for info from him so him and the guys at the office made up some stuff and laughed their *ss off when he posted it. Im pretty sure Dregar called him out the other day. So unless he nails a big story, I take what he says lightly. He gave 5% chance Parise/Suter sign together. Suter was 95% going to detroit and Parise 90% going to Pitt. 95% and 90% could have been flipped with teams and players, I dont recall.

    As for Nash and what is given up for him. The standard first round pick, which a late roun pick anyway, dont care about that. I have no problem giving up all the players that BSI listed, plus Miller. The only player he listed as being not moved that Im torn on is Stepan. Id like to keep him because of chemistry. But who does Gordie think is better him or Miller? I prefer Miller goes since hes not in the lineup yet. I know Stepan is young but how many centers in his age range are better? How many are older that will be around for awhile are better and how many younger are better. Basically how high do you guys rate him league wide. Its easier to replace a second line center then a true top line winger. Thats why hes the hard decision for me.
    A playmaking center is hard to find and Stepan is really underated on the forecheck as well. He's key to our 2nd line. I actually think people are overating Miller moreso than pumping up Stepan. Miller is actually slated as being more of a 3rd line two way player than a #2. His offensive skills aren't near where Stepan's were at the same point in his development. When comparing players it's easy to get carried away with what they are doing in the minors, but until they put on that Rangers jersey and start playing against men anything can happen. As a comparable, Stepan was the captain of Team USA in 2010 finishing the tourney as an all star with 4 goals and 10 assists in 7 games, Miller last year had 2 goals and 2 assists in 6 games, I don't think the two are comparable as offensive players. Stepan skipped the AHL and started here straight from college and he has a very good 96 points in 164 games for us and is one of the few players on this team that hasn't missed a game in those two years, he's only going to get better, I'm not prepared to let him go.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isca92 View Post
    Commonsense, heres my problem with Dubi. Yes overpaid. But I dont think him and cally can be on the same team. Both are second line wingers but neither has the scoring touch to play on the same line. They may score 30 but that doesnt make them 30 goal scorers. They cant be relied on to be the second punch. Just like Clarkson the 30 goal scorer for the Devils last season did nothing in the playoffs. 4 million is to much for a third line winger and Kreider and Hags or player traded for knock him down to the third line. So I think he has value just not enough to keep him on this team.

    Also, I wanted no part in Spezza either. Let me know what you think of my Datsyuk/Nash comparison in the other tread. We dont usually disagree but we do have some decent conversations regarding difference of opinions.
    I thought the Dubi, Stepan, Callahan was our best line once Dubi got back late in playoffs. Having said that, I don't think it's a problem of Dubi and Callahan on the same team, it's a problem of Dubi playing left wing instead of his natural center position. He's better when shooting from the center of the ice. When he's playing wing he ends up spending most of his time in the corner waiting for an opportunity to center the puck as opposed to bringing the puck out for a shot. He hasn't been able to play center since Richards was signed and Stepan came on the scene as we've had somewhat of a log jam of centers and no LW's. With everything that's gone on with this team he really should center the 3rd line, but that spot seems slotted to Boyle and they seem unwilling to try him at wing. So I guess my problem is that if the coaches are not going to use a guy where he's best suited then don't complain when he's not as productive as he should be when you resigned him as a center with 24 goals and 54 points.

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    I see what you're saying but right now as it stands, we're gonna have Richards,Stepan,Boyle,Halpern at center this year.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Wiskers View Post
    I see what you're saying but right now as it stands, we're gonna have Richards,Stepan,Boyle,Halpern at center this year.
    The only problem is that while Boyle had one 20 goal season, it's more likely that Dubinsky could replicate his 54pt season than Boyle if he were in his natural position. If it were me coaching, I'd have Boyle either center the 4th line, or play wing on a line with Dubi and Hagelin. Even with Dubi having a bad year he was still 10 points over Boyle, I just think you let the better players play in their natural positions and let the lower point guys fill in around them considering there's more upside to Dubi at center than Boyle. But that's my two cents, I really think Torts will try and use Dubi in the top 6 as much as possible though to start the season if he's still here so that will mean playing wing.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsi View Post
    The only problem is that while Boyle had one 20 goal season, it's more likely that Dubinsky could replicate his 54pt season than Boyle if he were in his natural position. If it were me coaching, I'd have Boyle either center the 4th line, or play wing on a line with Dubi and Hagelin. Even with Dubi having a bad year he was still 10 points over Boyle, I just think you let the better players play in their natural positions and let the lower point guys fill in around them considering there's more upside to Dubi at center than Boyle. But that's my two cents, I really think Torts will try and use Dubi in the top 6 as much as possible though to start the season if he's still here so that will mean playing wing.
    This top-6, bottom- 6 thing is being made to much of. An offensively talented team can have 3 lines that can score with an occasional contribution from its, and for lack of a better word, "checking" or 4th line. There is no reason with the composition of the team for the Rangers not to put out 3 lines capable of finding twine.

    The 3rd line shouldnt be considered so defensive by default.

  10. #55
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    Commonsense, The hockeyyinsiderr comment was more for everyone. Everyone got pissed when Portzine said he thinks the deal could be done with Stepan involved. Yet earlier in the week he said Howson and wasnt demanding Kreider, Stepan, Mcdonagh. As for the farm if were one of the deeper prospects teams as well as decent players on the roster it wouldnt be the farm.

    Onto Dubi/Cally together. I dont think together they are strong enough to win a Stanley Cup as a second line. I don't think its the best idea to have a 4 million dollar guy on the 3rd line when you can put his 4 million when you can use that to have a 7.5 player or 7.8 for all the Nash talk. The problem with "balanced scoring lines" is when things get tight their isn't that guy that ok hes gonna come up big for them, its I hope somebody does. While you can always hope that player any player chips in, theres a skill reason that a player chips in over being counted on.

    The Jordan Staal 4 million on the 3rd line, yeah he bolted but that also held money off the table to get Crosby a true scoring winger. But Crosbys good enough to offset not having a scoring winger. Id prefer to have my ELCs on 2/3 line instead of 1/2 so that when it gets tight were not relying on a rookie/sophmore type player for scoring.

    I agree stars dont mean you win, but the right ones do. Look at Chicago when they won, Toews, Kane, Buff, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Cambell (over paid but still produced) Seabrook. Kings Kopitar, Brown, Richards, Carter (scored timely goals), Doughty, Scudari (probably spelled wrong). I don't think I have to list Detroit or Pitt. Boston just physically dominated everyone where I don't think that the team is big enough to do that.

    The Datsyuk comparison is in the "official offseason thread".

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isca92 View Post
    Commonsense, The hockeyyinsiderr comment was more for everyone. Everyone got pissed when Portzine said he thinks the deal could be done with Stepan involved. Yet earlier in the week he said Howson and wasnt demanding Kreider, Stepan, Mcdonagh. As for the farm if were one of the deeper prospects teams as well as decent players on the roster it wouldnt be the farm.

    Onto Dubi/Cally together. I dont think together they are strong enough to win a Stanley Cup as a second line. I don't think its the best idea to have a 4 million dollar guy on the 3rd line when you can put his 4 million when you can use that to have a 7.5 player or 7.8 for all the Nash talk. The problem with "balanced scoring lines" is when things get tight their isn't that guy that ok hes gonna come up big for them, its I hope somebody does. While you can always hope that player any player chips in, theres a skill reason that a player chips in over being counted on.

    The Jordan Staal 4 million on the 3rd line, yeah he bolted but that also held money off the table to get Crosby a true scoring winger. But Crosbys good enough to offset not having a scoring winger. Id prefer to have my ELCs on 2/3 line instead of 1/2 so that when it gets tight were not relying on a rookie/sophmore type player for scoring.

    I agree stars dont mean you win, but the right ones do. Look at Chicago when they won, Toews, Kane, Buff, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Cambell (over paid but still produced) Seabrook. Kings Kopitar, Brown, Richards, Carter (scored timely goals), Doughty, Scudari (probably spelled wrong). I don't think I have to list Detroit or Pitt. Boston just physically dominated everyone where I don't think that the team is big enough to do that.

    The Datsyuk comparison is in the "official offseason thread".
    I think we think differently about this team. Being a fan of this team for decades i remember the teams that had no good potential prospects. For the first time in almost 20 yrs we finally have some good young talent. Now because a flashy name pops up fans want to trade a large portion of them for an overpaid player. I dont know how old you are but if you remember those over paid star studded teams that didnt do anything in the late 90s and early 2000s. Trading 4 or 5 good young players basically hurts us for years in terms of prospects.

    Looking at our prospect pool we really only have 1 potential 1st line player and that is Kreider. We have a few guys who could be 2nd liners (Miller, Yogan and Fast are the guys i think have the best chance. Thomas but i am not too high on him but other then that i feel everyone is more of 3rd line players. Yes i know some guys could become 2nd liners that i failed to mention but would anyone really be surprised if they turned out to be 3rd liners if they even do well in the NHL? On defense we have 2 good prospects McI and Erixon. Just because we have a deep pool doesnt mean we need to trade them.


    Now all that being said almost all of those prospects are a few years away. The only guy i see making this team out of camp is Erixon. Everyone else still needs seasoning in the AHL or wherever. I think thats why Sather is stocking up on 3rd and 4th liners. Now how much of a hole does losing Dubi, MDZ, AA, maybe Hags and thats not even including a pick and prospect that could be going the other way. I dont want Boyle as our 3rd line center thats a recipe for disaster. AA plays a good game but personally i would rather see him on wing.

    In regards to Dubi with Cally, i dont have a problem with it but i prefer Dubi on the 3rd line. I really would like 3 lines that can score this year rather then 1 or 2. We did not get enough balanced scoring IMO. In a perfect world i would love to have our 3rd line of Dubi Step AA. I know its not going to happen because we need a better 2nd line center. I also dont get the fact that your not ok with a guy who had 54 pts last year getting a bit too much money but you are okay with for a guy that averages 65 pts. Nash makes almost 4 mill more then Dubi and granted Dubi had a horrible year but lets say he gets 45 pts and Nash gets 65 pts is that worth almost 4 mill plus 4 or 5 players? I just dont see it.

    lastly you dont think we have stars? Henrik, Cally, Gabs, richards, Staal, Girardi, MCD are all pretty friggin good. If we win the cup those are the guys getting the credit. Add that to Kreider and MDZ for next year. We have tons of talent. I know you want another big scoring threat and so do I but only if the cost is right.

  12. #57
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    Commonsense, I do agree that its a difference of opinions based on age, even though Im not sure how old you are. I only started watching hockey around 1990 at the age of 8. However, by the time age of 16, its the only sport I followed. I remember the late 90s teams, I dreaded the 2000-04 teams as I was in college in Philadelphia area. With respect to that I remember the guys we brought in on the end of their career after injuries, the guys that came across the river just for money. I don’t believe that Nash is anywhere near the downswing of his career. The NHL package allowed me to watch every game and get ridiculed by Flyers fan and the one awful year the Flyers had I was out of college already. I still get the package to watch other games. Ive split season tickets since the year after the lockout. I love the sport and watch other games on off nights and when I go to a game I dvr it come home to see what I missed.

    Heres where I think our difference of opinions comes from. I believe that the post lockout rules allow prospects to come in a lot younger then pre lockout. Before you could have the skill but without the “mansize” you didn’t have a shot. A player drafted at 18 is almost expected to be in the league by 21, not 24/25.

    I agree with you that other then Kreider none of our forward prospects are considered to be second liners or third. That stems from middle of the pack draft spot. Since 2000, the only forwards drafted in the first round have been the Jessiman, Korpikowski, Cheripanov, Kreider, and Miller. While good players can slip and we don’t need a history on those, there is a difference skill between a top 5 pick and mid second round pick or later.

    I feel that if there are no players expected to be true first line players, there is a log jam of 2/3 line players and if they can be combined to a true first line player then I’m all for that. I look at Nash and when he steps on the ice hes out against Lidstrom’s line, Keith’s line, Weber’s line, Petroangelos line, as well as the skilled forwards from their team, from the best division in the west. Whereas, Dubi is going out there not against the top guys from the best division of the east. I also look at the Nash’s decreasing stats with the improvement of teams in the division as well as Hitch being let go, teammates traded for Carter who had no interest in being there.

    No matter who it is the price to acquire someone may be too high, I don’t say at any cost get him. I Just
    think we vary on what is too much. What Id like to see is Dubi/Hagelin/Erixon packaged with the standard first and I would let them choose between AA/Thomas/Miller. I turn around and look to get a guy like Mueller to go plug in the top 6 until Gaborik comes back and then on the third line. If the top 2 lines are Nash/Kreider Richards/Stepan Gaborik/Cally, while keeping Girardi/Mcdonagh/Staal/MDZ, I think that’s pretty good lineup.
    Im not saying our top guys aren’t stars but not the level of recent cup teams. A team that plays hard and competes doesn’t satisfy me anymore. It did post lockout, now I wont be satisfied til they are lifting the cup, and that top 6 and 4 are teams that wouldn’t be considered 1 and done teams. IMO Nash is one of those players that takes a good team to a great team. I think they are good team, not a 1 seed but not an 8 seed.

    Hope you liked my book. lol

  13. #58
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    Wow look for news and it's a discussion ... Guess its sloooooooooooooooow

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isca92 View Post
    Commonsense, I do agree that its a difference of opinions based on age, even though Im not sure how old you are. I only started watching hockey around 1990 at the age of 8. However, by the time age of 16, its the only sport I followed. I remember the late 90s teams, I dreaded the 2000-04 teams as I was in college in Philadelphia area. With respect to that I remember the guys we brought in on the end of their career after injuries, the guys that came across the river just for money. I don’t believe that Nash is anywhere near the downswing of his career. The NHL package allowed me to watch every game and get ridiculed by Flyers fan and the one awful year the Flyers had I was out of college already. I still get the package to watch other games. Ive split season tickets since the year after the lockout. I love the sport and watch other games on off nights and when I go to a game I dvr it come home to see what I missed.

    Heres where I think our difference of opinions comes from. I believe that the post lockout rules allow prospects to come in a lot younger then pre lockout. Before you could have the skill but without the “mansize” you didn’t have a shot. A player drafted at 18 is almost expected to be in the league by 21, not 24/25.

    I agree with you that other then Kreider none of our forward prospects are considered to be second liners or third. That stems from middle of the pack draft spot. Since 2000, the only forwards drafted in the first round have been the Jessiman, Korpikowski, Cheripanov, Kreider, and Miller. While good players can slip and we don’t need a history on those, there is a difference skill between a top 5 pick and mid second round pick or later.

    I feel that if there are no players expected to be true first line players, there is a log jam of 2/3 line players and if they can be combined to a true first line player then I’m all for that. I look at Nash and when he steps on the ice hes out against Lidstrom’s line, Keith’s line, Weber’s line, Petroangelos line, as well as the skilled forwards from their team, from the best division in the west. Whereas, Dubi is going out there not against the top guys from the best division of the east. I also look at the Nash’s decreasing stats with the improvement of teams in the division as well as Hitch being let go, teammates traded for Carter who had no interest in being there.

    No matter who it is the price to acquire someone may be too high, I don’t say at any cost get him. I Just
    think we vary on what is too much. What Id like to see is Dubi/Hagelin/Erixon packaged with the standard first and I would let them choose between AA/Thomas/Miller. I turn around and look to get a guy like Mueller to go plug in the top 6 until Gaborik comes back and then on the third line. If the top 2 lines are Nash/Kreider Richards/Stepan Gaborik/Cally, while keeping Girardi/Mcdonagh/Staal/MDZ, I think that’s pretty good lineup.
    Im not saying our top guys aren’t stars but not the level of recent cup teams. A team that plays hard and competes doesn’t satisfy me anymore. It did post lockout, now I wont be satisfied til they are lifting the cup, and that top 6 and 4 are teams that wouldn’t be considered 1 and done teams. IMO Nash is one of those players that takes a good team to a great team. I think they are good team, not a 1 seed but not an 8 seed.

    Hope you liked my book. lol
    Well i guess we will agree to disagree. I think you are way over valuing Nash to be honest. BTW i will bet Carter has a great year next year in LA. I think his struggles in columbus have something to do with Nash. Nash does not make players better and that is obvious. I dont think he has made anyone better in his entire career.

    I also disagree with the guys that you are ready to give up a combination of Dubi/AA/Hags (Young NHL guys), Erixon (Probably ready this year), and Miller/Thomas (closest we have to being ready after Erixon) is a huge mistake. I would be fine with 2 or maybe even 3 of those guys, but 5.....no thanks. I am glad you left out step and MDZ.

    I also want a cup but i dont think you realize how much an effect a trade will have on a team when you get rid of so many key pieces. It takes teams a long time to get used to each other. So far we have been lucky because we only lost Prust, Feds and Mitchell. I could not imagine losing another 4 or 5 guys from last years team. Most teams that switch over 6,7 or 8 guys from the previous season are not going to have the same success from the previous year. For arguements sake lets say we get Nash for Dubi, AA, hags and Erixon. Opening the year we only have Rich, Step, Cally, Boyle and maybe Rupp if he isnt a healthy scratch as forwards that started last year. That is really bad in terms of chemistry. I dont think you can do that to a team and expect them to take the next step.

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    I'm kinda torn between two theories with this, I feel the longer this takes the more edge it gives Sather in the negotiations part of this, eventually Howson may drop his price since it is obvious Nash wants out and he wants to be a Ranger, but then again the longer this takes, this may give other teams like the Sharks and Red Wings more time to work out a deal for him. There is a good and bad part about this long negotiation.

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