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View Poll Results: Best SS ever

Voters
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  • Wagner

    43 58.11%
  • A-Rod

    31 41.89%
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Thread: Best SS Ever

  1. #1
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    Best SS Ever

    Ok, so me and a few ppl were arguing best SS Ever,

    Lets just pretend Arod stayed at ss..Would he have gone down as better than Honus wagner?

    Also the real question is, who dominated there respective era more? Wagner OR Arod?

    I also dont want ppl factoring drugs, stricly who dominated there era more..

    (I argued Wagner)

  2. #2
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    We'll never have a completely accurate grasp on Wagner's defense.

    Honus was better considering his time period, because players were just a lot worse then, but A-Rod's numbers are better if you look at them head to head.

    Most everyone is going to say Wagner, but it's actually probably close.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    We'll never have a completely accurate grasp on Wagner's defense.

    Honus was better considering his time period, because players were just a lot worse then, but A-Rod's numbers are better if you look at them head to head.

    Most everyone is going to say Wagner, but it's actually probably close.
    While we never saw wagner play defense, according to everything i have read he was a fine fielder/one one leagues best.

  4. #4
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    Bill James says that Wagner is easily the greatest shortstop of all time, noting that the difference between Wagner and the second greatest shortstop, in James's estimation Arky Vaughan, is roughly the same as the gulf between Vaughan and the 20th greatest shortstop. (Obviously this was before arod, but still...)

  5. #5
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    The one that didn't juice

  6. #6
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    inb4 Jeter

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos_Sports4Life View Post
    While we never saw wagner play defense, according to everything i have read he was a fine fielder/one one leagues best.
    And by everything you'd read today you'd think Jeter was a fine fielder/one of the leagues best.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    We'll never have a completely accurate grasp on Wagner's defense.

    Honus was better considering his time period, because players were just a lot worse then, but A-Rod's numbers are better if you look at them head to head.

    Most everyone is going to say Wagner, but it's actually probably close.
    Bill James and friends have studied Wagner defense like crazy and say he's either the best or 2nd best fielding SS of all time.

    The game was different then, and Honus dominated his game more then AROD did his. With adjustments added in Honus beats on AROD by a good measure. Also AROD is in decline, the longer he plays the worse his BA and OBP will be vs Wagner.

    Wagners neutral slash: .335/.400/.476 SB: 42
    A ROD's neutral slash: .293/.376/.548 SB: 20

    Wagner's OBP advantage just about swallows up AROD's SLG advantage.

    Fielding career wise (in BR runs): +85 > AROD's +30

    Wagner rWAR 126 > 110 for AROD
    Last edited by bagwell368; 07-12-2012 at 12:36 PM.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    And by everything you'd read today you'd think Jeter was a fine fielder/one of the leagues best.
    I dont know anything else besides ESPN who believe jeter is average, never mind gg calliber.



    These stats are flawed I know, esp in wagners era but atleast its SOMETHING to go by..


    * Range Factor/Game as SS

    Wagner led the league 4 times and is 11th all time

    * Field %

    Wagner led the league 3 times

    * Putouts

    Wagner led the league twice, 2nd 5 other times


    Defensive WAR

    21.3, 39th all time

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Bill James and friends have studied Wagner defense like crazy and say he's either the best or 2nd best fielding SS of all time.

    The game was different then, and Honus dominated his game more then AROD did his. With adjustments added in Honus beats on AROD by a good measure. Also AROD is in decline, the longer he plays the worse his BA and OBP will be vs Wagner.

    Wagner was also a great base runner unlike AROD.
    We don't even have a good defensive metric right now, in 2012, and you're putting that much stock in a few observations made on a guy who hasn't played in a century? Forgive me for being skeptical.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    We don't even have a good defensive metric right now, in 2012, and you're putting that much stock in a few observations made on a guy who hasn't played in a century? Forgive me for being skeptical.
    I think with enough research you can come to a decent conclusion. These men are some of the brightest minds in baseball doing long hours of research..

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by VRP723 View Post
    And by everything you'd read today you'd think Jeter was a fine fielder/one of the leagues best.
    It's not just the accounts. It's the fielding records too.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  13. #13
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    ARod, he was in talks for a decade to POSSIBLY be the best player of all time.

  14. #14
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    IDk if Wagner's 25 point obp advantage swallows up an 80 point slugging advantage.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    It's not just the accounts. It's the fielding records too.
    I've always been skeptical of the old fielding records. I think it's certainly an interesting approach to trying to decipher who was good in the field/who was not, but it's over 100 years old. And certainly written with potential biases in them. With no real numbers, no real video and only the historical records written, it's almost impossible to decipher if Wagner really was a great fielder or not, even if it is the only/best way to even attempt to do it.

    Like I said, I find them interesting, just don't find them to be anywhere near definitive, either.
    1st Place...the only place that matters


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