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View Poll Results: How many titles would MJ and the Bulls have won with no pippen?

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    4 30.77%
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    2 15.38%
  • 2

    3 23.08%
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    0 0%
  • 4

    0 0%
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    0 0%
  • 6

    4 30.77%
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  1. #1
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    90's Bulls without Pippen

    How many titles do you think Chi would have won if they didn't have scottie and had a league average player instead?

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  3. #3
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    Without Scottie, the Bulls are missing a huge part of what made them defensively potent. They are not winning six titles without him.

  4. #4
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    Dumb thread. This would make sense if Pippen won league or finals mvp at some point.


    Most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.

    Here are a few:


    Source: GoogleBooks


    Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sa...ag-033012.html

    Sam: I remember Jordan helping Pippen with this. In Pippen’s first several seasons, he rarely got calls on drives. Jordan used to show him — we were permitted to watch practice then — how to drive into contact and then react to the contact. Pippen used to practice it all the time with Jordan showing him.
    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link

    He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...sejordan090909

    “Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”


    http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html

    Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.

    http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html

    Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.


    http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nb...ory?id=5453558

    CHICAGO -- The Detroit Pistons may have toughened up the Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but Jerry Krause wouldn't give the Bad Boys any undue credit for contributing to Scottie Pippen's basketball manhood or his Hall of Fame career.

    "No, Michael [Jordan] made him a man," said the Bulls' former general manager, now a scout for the White Sox. "The Pistons didn't have anything to do with that. Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And then when Phil [Jackson] brought the triangle [offense] in, it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."

    "And he had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death," Krause said. "The practices were great because you could see him at the end of the year start to grow and start to fight Michael . . ."
    -----------------------------



    If PSD was around in Pippen's rookie season people would be calling him the biggest bust of all-time. (Check his rookie stats, they're on par with ****** whipping boy Evan Turner.)

    -----------------------------


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4sj1LmYgh8

    From 2:10 to 2:42

    On playing with Jordan - "Because i think it made me a better person and a better player"

    Horace Grant



    "He made us better... myself, Scottie, BJ, even Bill Cartwright who I still love, he made us better players. He gave us that confidence, but first we had to earn his trust and once we earned his trust man you know you saw championship after championship..."
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  5. #5
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    He definitely needed his help to win 6 championships. I wonder what that team would have been like had that swap for Kemp went through.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    This would make sense if Pippen won league or finals mvp at some point.
    So a player can only be valuable to a championship team if they win a league or finals mvp?
    YES. WE. DID.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty View Post
    So a player can only be valuable to a championship team if they win a league or finals mvp?
    in JB's eyes, Pippen was just there for the ride.


    Pippen was awesome player in his own right. I don't understand how ppl can discredit his game and impact.

  8. #8
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    better question is how many championships would the Trailblazers have won if they had taken Jordan instead of Bowie and had a LeBron-Wade like tandem of Jordan and Drexler.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    Dumb thread. This would make sense if Pippen won league or finals mvp at some point.


    Most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.




    ----------------------------------------------------------
    http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sa...ag-033012.html



    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link




    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...sejordan090909





    http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html




    http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html





    http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nb...ory?id=5453558






    -----------------------------





    -----------------------------


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4sj1LmYgh8

    From 2:10 to 2:42

    On playing with Jordan - "Because i think it made me a better person and a better player"

    Horace Grant



    "He made us better... myself, Scottie, BJ, even Bill Cartwright who I still love, he made us better players. He gave us that confidence, but first we had to earn his trust and once we earned his trust man you know you saw championship after championship..."



    This is some seriously flawed logic...


    * Just because he didn't win a MVP doesn't mean he wasn't important. It's like me saying McHale/Parrish wasn't important for Bird because they never won a league/Finals MVP


    * Pippen was a top 50 player of all time. I don't care how much MJ "Helped" Pippen, Top 50 players of all time deserve a TON of credit themself..


    For whatever reason you think by crediting pippen people are disscrediting MJ, thats not how it should be.

  10. #10
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    They don't win a single title without Pippen or without a player at least on his level. Pippen was crititcal to the Bulls' success. He was the main fascilitator on the offensive end, guarded the other team's best wing player, was the 2nd option offensively, was generally the team's 2nd best rebounder. He was one of the most versatile player's in NBA history and was the definition of point/forward. In my opinion, people don't give him his just due for all he did for Chicago. He was deserving of his top 50 selection and what he did the year after Jordan retired spoke to how great he was. No one thought the Bulls would be contenders without Jordan and Pippen defied that. In fact, his team was a bad call away from advancing to the Eastern Conf. Finals (See Bulls vs Knicks in the 94 playoffs-Game 5).
    Last edited by Lakersfan2483; 06-19-2012 at 01:28 AM.
    http://i44.tinypic.com/nl7ngy.jpg

    Bring Back the Zen Master.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakersfan2483 View Post
    They don't win a single title without Pippen or without a player at least on his level. Pippen was crititcal to the Bulls' success. He was the main fascilitator on the offensive end, guarded the other team's best wing player, was the 2nd option offensively, was generally the team's 2nd best rebounder. He was one of the most versatile player's in NBA history and was the definition of point/forward. In my opinion, people don't give him his just due for all he did for Chicago. He was deserving of his top 50 selection and what he did the year after Jordan retired spoke to how great he was. No one thought the Bulls would be contenders without Jordan and Pippen defied that. In fact, his team was a bad call away from advancing to the Eastern Conf. Finals (See Bulls vs Knicks in the 94 playoffs-Game 5).
    no one seems to mention the huge fight in game 3 of this series that was pretty much a benefit to the Bulls and a blow to the Knicks. A scrub named JoJo English starts the fight with the Knicks starting PG, Derek Harper. As a result, both are ejected for the rest of game 3, which had 1 half left (Derek Harper played 13 minutes) to play, and are suspended for games 4 and 5. The Bulls losing JoJo English didn't mean much since he was a nobody. The Knicks losing Derek Harper was huge. Game 3 ended up with the Bulls winning by only 2 points on a Kukoc buzzer-beater. Is it far-fetched to think the Knicks would've done better with Harper in the game and possibly won? The Bulls won convincingly in game 4, but maybe it would've been different if Harper played. After all, he is someone that you believe would've been the difference in the Bulls going to the Finals and/or winning a title if they had been able to get him during the offseason. So really, just like you say the Pippen foul could've been the difference in the Bulls losing in 7 vs. the Bulls winning in 6, the Harper-English could've been the difference in the Knicks winning in 7 vs. the Knicks sweeping.

    I'm not saying the above would've happened. The Bulls could've won those games anyway, just like the Knicks could've won anyway if it weren't for the Pippen foul. But you can say the Knicks were hurt by something that had nothing to do with the way they played and over something they didn't even initiate and things could've ended up very differently if it wasn't for that.

    And even if you just want to say the Knicks weren't that great cause the Bulls w/o Jordan took the Knicks to 7 games, its still a false statement to make. Were the 08 Celtics not great cause they were pushed to 7 games by a under .500 Hawks team and a Lebron+scrubs Cavs team? Were the 09 Lakers not great cause they were pushed to 7 games by the Rockets who didn't have T-Mac and didn't have Yao for half the series? ***** like that happens all the time in the NBA.


    The record doesn't tell us a lot here. The Bulls in 1992-93 were a bit below the expected win%, while the Bulls in 1993/94 were clearly above. With 6.19 SRS in 1993 the Bulls were clearly stronger. And, when we just take the 78 games with Jordan in 1993, we even get a 6.5 SRS. If we now compare that to the 3.05 SRS with Pippen, we see the difference between a team winning 59 games and a team winning 50 games.
    It is also the case that the Bulls in 1993 underperformed during the regular season. When we look at the playoffs, we can see them beating teams which had in average a 5.05 SRS by 5.9 points, which makes it a 10.95 SRS, a clear championship caliber team, much better than what we saw during the regular season. The Bulls didn't come close to that kind of level without Jordan. In 1994/95 the Bulls with Jordan again had 6.17 SRS, while they were at 3.82 SRS without him. The SRS with Jordan is pretty close to the average performance level of championship teams (6.7 SRS), without him they weren't at that level.

    Additional to that: Nearly 50% of the playing time was taken by new players, it was a different team.

    Code:
    1993
    
    Michael Jordan	17.2
    Horace Grant	9.1
    Scottie Pippen	8.6
    B.J. Armstrong	7.5
    Scott Williams	3.9
    Trent Tucker	2.8
    Will Perdue	2.5
    John Paxson	1.9
    Stacey King	1.9
    Bill Cartwright	1.2
    Rodney McCray	0.9
    Darrell Walker	0.6
    Ed Nealy	0.2
    Corey Williams	0.2
    Joe Courtney	0
    Ricky Blanton	0
    Jo Jo English	-0.1
    	        58.4
    Code:
    1994
    Scottie Pippen	11.2
    Horace Grant	10
    B.J. Armstrong	7.5
    Steve Kerr	6.1
    Bill Wennington	3.5
    Toni Kukoc	3.2
    Pete Myers	3
    Scott Williams	1.7
    Luc Longley	1.3
    Bill Cartwright	1.3
    Corie Blount	1.2
    John Paxson	0.6
    Stacey King	0.4
    Will Perdue	0.2
    Jo Jo English	0
    Dave Johnson	-0.2
    	        51
    For instance MJ alone had 17.2 Win Shares in 1993, but in 1994 these guys added up to be 18.8 Win Shares as they were not on the 1993 team.

    Code:
    Kerr	6.6
    Wennington	3.5
    Kukoc	3.2
    Myers	3
    Longley	1.3
    Blount	1.2
    	18.8
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  12. #12
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    With no one to replace him? 0 and that's easy.

  13. #13
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    Without pippen's impact, Bulls were 2nd round exits at best every year in the 90s.

  14. #14
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    When Jordan retired and the team was left with pippen running the show they were still a serious contender. I don't know if they win 6, but they would have won a few without pippen. That's not a shot at pippen either. But, the bulls had stacked teams as the role players were very good. Not to mention phil Jackson and his coaching staff.

  15. #15
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    I say 3-5.
    Yo Kobe, get at me bro, we'd have a good time, man

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