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  1. #16
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    Can't hurt at all. If he's got any offensive touch he could fit very nicely with Kulemin and another guy on the 3rd line on a checking line. Or possibly with Mike Brown on some sort of energy line. However, Steckel doesn't really fit on either of those lines...the bottom 6 probably needs to be rebuilt as badly as the top 6 needs to be rebuilt...

  2. #17
    Lavy16 is offline Users Awaiting Moderation
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    Quote Originally Posted by McJoe View Post
    Can't hurt at all. If he's got any offensive touch he could fit very nicely with Kulemin and another guy on the 3rd line on a checking line. Or possibly with Mike Brown on some sort of energy line. However, Steckel doesn't really fit on either of those lines...the bottom 6 probably needs to be rebuilt as badly as the top 6 needs to be rebuilt...
    If this is the case and I agree 100% with you, why does Burke still have a job?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavy16 View Post
    If this is the case and I agree 100% with you, why does Burke still have a job?
    Don't have to convince me that he shouldn't have one. I'm sitting at the front of that train with you.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavy16 View Post
    If this is the case and I agree 100% with you, why does Burke still have a job?
    Because most of his moves havnt been bad.

    For the most part he has made postiive impacts on the roster and on this team's prospects. I'm not saying he has unlimited range and I would strongly consider being on the fire Burke fanbase if they don't make the playoffs next year (depends on the circumstance a bit but yes i likely agree).

    He's been solid without being great.

    His biggest flaw is the fact that during his tenure (and really since Belfour) we have not had a goalie. That is by far the largest reason we can't make the playoffs.

    I would say that if we had league average goaltending we probabally would have made it.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not overwelmed by his job (his FA job is mostly poor, draft is hard to tell yet, trades are great) but he hasnt been attrocious.

  5. #20
    Lavy16 is offline Users Awaiting Moderation
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    Quote Originally Posted by halladaymvp;22350841[B
    ]When you actually realize the teams biggest needs then I can take you a little more seriously.[/B] Cry all you want about top 6 but the fact remains that over the past 3 or 4 years the team hasn't been able to keep the puck out the net. The offense has been really good or average over that span meanwhile, the goaltending has stunk as has the PK. To simply dismiss any move that doesn't involve the top 6 is ignorant. I feel like a broken record here as Leafs fans seem to fail to see our real issues start between the pipes and on the penalty kill which may or may not go hand-in-hand. Do we need a top center? of course. Should it be priority number one this summer? no.
    I have mentioned in many posts that the Leafs need a number 1 proven goalie to make the playoffs. If making the playoffs is all you want then you'll be happy if they get a number 1 goalie. Remember, Burke builds his teams from the net out. He's proven that in his tenure with the Leafs. I'm not content with just making the playoffs. Burke has been in charge long enough to have the goaltending situation solidified. Do you honestly think that the current group of forwards could handle the playoffs? The injury prone Army, Lombardi, Lupul, Connolly, Grabs would be out after the first game. I'll be happy with a number 1 goalie and a number 1 center who can handle the playoffs. Could you imagine the Leafs meeting the Flyers in the 1st round. The medical staff would be working OT after game 1

  6. #21
    Lavy16 is offline Users Awaiting Moderation
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrice9 View Post
    Because most of his moves havnt been bad.

    For the most part he has made postiive impacts on the roster and on this team's prospects. I'm not saying he has unlimited range and I would strongly consider being on the fire Burke fanbase if they don't make the playoffs next year (depends on the circumstance a bit but yes i likely agree).

    He's been solid without being great.

    His biggest flaw is the fact that during his tenure (and really since Belfour) we have not had a goalie. That is by far the largest reason we can't make the playoffs.

    I would say that if we had league average goaltending we probabally would have made it.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not overwelmed by his job (his FA job is mostly poor, draft is hard to tell yet, trades are great) but he hasnt been attrocious.
    His UFA signings have been beyond brutal...I wouldn't say his trades have been great...sure he landed Lupul and Gardnier for Beau...but he gave up way too much for Kessel and he is stuck with Phaneuf's huge contract for a few more years. His drafting hasn't produced a NHL player in Toronto yet (unless you count all the Ducks players he acquired).

    I sometimes wonder if he thinks before he speaks. Remember his "blueprint" speech. How he builds his teams from the net out. Goaltending has sucked since he's been here and the defence is below average. Truculence...nope.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrice9 View Post
    Because most of his moves havnt been bad.

    For the most part he has made postiive impacts on the roster and on this team's prospects. I'm not saying he has unlimited range and I would strongly consider being on the fire Burke fanbase if they don't make the playoffs next year (depends on the circumstance a bit but yes i likely agree).

    He's been solid without being great.

    His biggest flaw is the fact that during his tenure (and really since Belfour) we have not had a goalie. That is by far the largest reason we can't make the playoffs.

    I would say that if we had league average goaltending we probabally would have made it.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not overwelmed by his job (his FA job is mostly poor, draft is hard to tell yet, trades are great) but he hasnt been attrocious.
    Not only has Burke not done a good job but he's constantly lied to us(the fans), treated us like crap, and either he really just generally has NO IDEA what he's doing, or he's beyond full of ****...

    Lets take a quick stroll down memory lane...

    - Burke is hired
    - "Truculence, Pugnacity, Tenacity, Testosterone" "tough team to play against" yada yada yada.
    - "build from net out" etc.
    - fastforward to January 2012, Leafs are one of the smallest and softest(at least up front) teams in the league with only 1 forward over 6'1" (Kulemin)
    - one of the worst defensive and one of the worst goaltending teams in the league
    - "I always said we'd be an exciting team, fast team, score goals" (see above)
    - Hires Randy Carlyle
    - "we're going to be a big team" "a tough team to play against" etc.

    So he either has no ****ing idea what he's doing and should be fired, or he's lying to us and treating us like dirt whilst putting out 3 of the worst teams in the long history of this once great franchise. Pick your poison, either way he's a joke...

    But back to Komarov. Good signing. Good to see draft picks(especially Euros) wanting to play for the team. Komarov WANTED to play for the Leafs. Hopefully he can earn himself a job.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavy16 View Post
    His UFA signings have been beyond brutal...I wouldn't say his trades have been great...sure he landed Lupul and Gardnier for Beau...but he gave up way too much for Kessel and he is stuck with Phaneuf's huge contract for a few more years. His drafting hasn't produced a NHL player in Toronto yet (unless you count all the Ducks players he acquired).

    I sometimes wonder if he thinks before he speaks. Remember his "blueprint" speech. How he builds his teams from the net out. Goaltending has sucked since he's been here and the defence is below average. Truculence...nope.
    If you want to talk about UFA's.

    You have to take the brutal (Komisarek and Connolly primarily) with the mediocre Beachemin, decent Brown, very good MacArthur among others. Armstrong would also be a bad signing but injuries are a bit more difficult to predict and he wasnt injury prone prior to being a Leaf. I don't really blame Burke there, thats just bad luck.

    I might be forgetting some, but his FA's while not good (especially considering we havnt signed a star in 3 years despite having cap space) havnt been as bad as some make it.

    Edit: There's Bozak too who I will keep as neutral. His cap hit was a bit high but he's been a pretty decent asset and plays ok in an non-ideal situation.

    I really don't care about rhetoric only result.

    In trades you have the Lupul, Gardiner trade, clearing Blake's contract in the Giguere deal, you have the Kaberle trade, you have the Stalberg for a first round pick trade (which is pretty good) and the Phaneuf trade is still mostly a plus imo. Kessel was an asset overpaid but was one of the best offensive players in the league this season and will be in the future as well.



    Quote Originally Posted by McJoe View Post
    Not only has Burke not done a good job but he's constantly lied to us(the fans), treated us like crap, and either he really just generally has NO IDEA what he's doing, or he's beyond full of ****...

    Lets take a quick stroll down memory lane...

    - Burke is hired
    - "Truculence, Pugnacity, Tenacity, Testosterone" "tough team to play against" yada yada yada.
    - "build from net out" etc.
    - fastforward to January 2012, Leafs are one of the smallest and softest(at least up front) teams in the league with only 1 forward over 6'1" (Kulemin)
    - one of the worst defensive and one of the worst goaltending teams in the league
    - "I always said we'd be an exciting team, fast team, score goals" (see above)
    - Hires Randy Carlyle
    - "we're going to be a big team" "a tough team to play against" etc.

    So he either has no ****ing idea what he's doing and should be fired, or he's lying to us and treating us like dirt whilst putting out 3 of the worst teams in the long history of this once great franchise. Pick your poison, either way he's a joke...

    But back to Komarov. Good signing. Good to see draft picks(especially Euros) wanting to play for the team. Komarov WANTED to play for the Leafs. Hopefully he can earn himself a job.
    I really don't give a **** how he supposedly treats the fans or what he states. I care about his roster moves and they have been average for the most part.


    You don't fire a GM after three offseasons, thats not how successful franchises run. Burke has had his three offseasons with mixed results. I give him a 4th to put on the final pieces.

    This team shat the bed in the last quarter but arguablly it was the best Leaf team since the lockout.

    This doesnt not fall on him but if we aquire a goaltender, there is no reason this team shouldnt be on the verge if not making the playoffs and then you role the dice from there.

    The one Burke ideology I do reject though is when he says "We don't want to make it as the 8th seed and get our *** kicked in the first round." The NHL playoffs have dictated that making them means that your then going to rely on your team being hot and then anything can happen. Also, you have to start somewhere.

    To be honest I think Burke is grandiose for most of his statements and his tough talk and its not that effective (and he's realized the game has changed a bit since he took tenure so his rhetoric is different) but ultimately I don't care. I care about results.

    He gets a 4th offseason and a 4th full season and we'll go from there. If they miss the playoffs again without a tremendous reason (Kessel misses the season along with the new goalie being pretty much the only one I can think of) I would support a regime change.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrice9 View Post
    You don't fire a GM after three offseasons, thats not how successful franchises run. Burke has had his three offseasons with mixed results. I give him a 4th to put on the final pieces.
    I will highlight this because I don't really disagree with anything else you said. I can see both sides of the argument. I don't like Burke but some of his moves haven't been bad. Even the Kessel move. If Kessel is indeed an 80 point guy and Seguin sticks around 60, I'd do that trade again.

    But I wanted to highlight this because I want to add one thing...

    If these are "mixed results" I'd hate to see what you thought bad results were.

    In his 3 seasons here the Leafs have been 29th, 25th, and 29th in goals against, 30th, 28th, and 28th in PK%, and been 29th, 22nd, and 26th overall in those 3 seasons. Over those 3 seasons, the Leafs have 239 points. The only 3 teams worse are Edmonton, Columbus, and the New York Islanders. The Leafs are the 4th worst team in the league in Burke's 3 seasons. That's bad.

  10. #25
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    If these are "mixed results" I'd hate to see what you thought bad results were.

    In his 3 seasons here the Leafs have been 29th, 25th, and 29th in goals against, 30th, 28th, and 28th in PK%, and been 29th, 22nd, and 26th overall in those 3 seasons. Over those 3 seasons, the Leafs have 239 points. The only 3 teams worse are Edmonton, Columbus, and the New York Islanders. The Leafs are the 4th worst team in the league in Burke's 3 seasons. That's bad.
    I meant offseasons in terms of moves not in season results which have been poor to horrendous.

    Still, this season is a bit of misnomer considering the team was in it, sucked for a bit, got injured/tanked (they would never admit it but look at some of the guy's playing) at the end.

    We also missed our pythageron (with the 10th most goals we should have been a better team by a bit) and admittedly had our shaky goaltending situation screwed by Reimer's injury.


    I'm not making excuses. Its a failure by the team to miss three straight postseasons in the Burke reign I just think he deserves a 4th. He has not been horrific enough to warrant this early a firing and I have some confidence the goaltending will be better next season.

    There are goalies available that make me feel a bit more comfortable.




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  11. #26
    Lavy16 is offline Users Awaiting Moderation
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    Quote Originally Posted by McJoe View Post
    I will highlight this because I don't really disagree with anything else you said. I can see both sides of the argument. I don't like Burke but some of his moves haven't been bad. Even the Kessel move. If Kessel is indeed an 80 point guy and Seguin sticks around 60, I'd do that trade again.

    But I wanted to highlight this because I want to add one thing...

    If these are "mixed results" I'd hate to see what you thought bad results were.

    In his 3 seasons here the Leafs have been 29th, 25th, and 29th in goals against, 30th, 28th, and 28th in PK%, and been 29th, 22nd, and 26th overall in those 3 seasons. Over those 3 seasons, the Leafs have 239 points. The only 3 teams worse are Edmonton, Columbus, and the New York Islanders. The Leafs are the 4th worst team in the league in Burke's 3 seasons. That's bad.
    Like I said before, with results like this why does he still have a job after all the promises he made?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavy16 View Post
    Like I said before, with results like this why does he still have a job after all the promises he made?
    Mostly because its dumb to fire a GM every three years.

    You let them complete their vision a bit (5 is ideal but I woulnd give him 5 if they don't make the playoffs).


    Also, its a positive that most of the successful positions we have are filled by young players.

    This team is younger and has better farm depth than what it had (partially due to Burke)
    Last edited by jrice9; 05-30-2012 at 09:42 PM.

  13. #28
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    He still has a job because he makes good kool-aide lavy

  14. #29
    Lavy16 is offline Users Awaiting Moderation
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktownguy31 View Post
    He still has a job because he makes good kool-aide lavy
    The problem about the kool-aide is some Leafs fans have stopped drinking it and are starting to realize he isn't the Messiah he claimed to be

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrice9 View Post
    I meant offseasons in terms of moves not in season results which have been poor to horrendous.

    Still, this season is a bit of misnomer considering the team was in it, sucked for a bit, got injured/tanked (they would never admit it but look at some of the guy's playing) at the end.

    We also missed our pythageron (with the 10th most goals we should have been a better team by a bit) and admittedly had our shaky goaltending situation screwed by Reimer's injury.


    I'm not making excuses. Its a failure by the team to miss three straight postseasons in the Burke reign I just think he deserves a 4th. He has not been horrific enough to warrant this early a firing and I have some confidence the goaltending will be better next season.

    There are goalies available that make me feel a bit more comfortable
    I've decided I'm going to start disagreeing now. Last season wasn't as good as you are letting on...

    On November 6th, the Leafs were the 1st place team in the NHL with a 9-3-1 record and 19 points and on December 1st, they were tied for 4th in the league, 2 points out of 1st, with a 14-8-2 record (notice 5-5-1 between those dates). From then on, the Leafs managed 50 points in 56 games, a 73 point pace.

    Now, you can probably dissect these numbers any way you want, so here are 3 ways that I find interesting.

    1) if you take out the games between the February 6th 6-3 win over the Oilers and the March 15th 3-1 win over the Lightning (a 2-13-2 run) the Leafs would have gone 33-24-8 for 74 points and a 93 point pace. Big difference right? The Leafs SNEAK INTO 7th. Passing the Capitals and Senators by 1 point.
    If you extend that exclusion to the end of the season, the Leafs would be removing a 7-18-4 finish and leaving them with a 28-19-6 record and leaving them with 62 points and a marginally better but not any better standing wise 96 point pace (rounded up).

    2) If you go the other direction and remove their brilliant beginning of the season run up until December 1st when they were tied for 4th in the NHL, 1 point back of the Bruins for the division and 2 back of Pittsburgh for the entire league lead, you remove a 14-9-2 mark leaving them with a 21-28-8 record for 50 points and a paltry 72 point pace, good for second last.
    If you go back one more day to the last time they were on top of the division, you take out one more loss and put them on a marginally lesser 70 point pace. Still 5 off Columbus in second last.

    3) possibly the most interesting...the hot start PLUS the epic February collapse resulted in a 16-21-4 record, good for 36 points in 41 games (half the season) and that same paltry 72 point pace as above. If you REMOVE that from the Leafs record for the regular season, it leaves you with a 19-16-6 mark in 41 games and a marginally better 88 point mark which would only have been good enough for 10th spot...the same spot (with 3 more points) that they inhabited the previous season under Burke.

    And as for best team since the lockout, none of Burke's teams are better than the 05-06 and 06-07 teams that both finished in 9th, 2 and 1 point(s) out of the playoffs, with 90 and 91 points respectively. No Leaf team since has come really all that close with the closest being Reimer's run getting us 85 points.

    What's my point? You can slice the numbers any way you want but you can pull a hot streak and a cold streak out of every team in the league and improve their standing, the Leafs clearly started hot and finished cold, the fact that it was the opposite of what they do most years shouldn't blind us from the fact that its still a ****** team...

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