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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonJohnHorn View Post
    I hate Jordan, even I can't deny he is the best SG of all time.
    I hate Kobe as well, but, even I cannot deny he is the second best SG or all time.
    That said, there is not enough respect being given to Clyde Drexler here. He should be on everybody lists. Wade? People putting Wade above Drexler? Have you people seen Drexler play... this guy was a beast. He was on some deep squads so he wasn't always called upon to score a lot, but his rebounding, and passing, and defence. And he was such a GREAT scorer on top of it all.

    In my book, the only player that I will accept being placed over Drexler is West, Jordan and Kobe, though I would out Drexler over West, though West is a better shooter than Drexler.

    So...
    1st: Jordan
    2nd: Kobe
    3rd: Drezler
    4th: West
    5th: You can let Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Ice Man and Dwayne Wade figure that out amongst themselves. There is an argument for each of them.

    But, seriously, lets give proper respect to Drexler... dude was AMAZING!!!
    I have no problem with someone putting Drexler over Wade, but Clyde's defense was suspect, and he wasn't much of a passer off the drive because he put his head down on the dribble, but lets not act like he didn't play with some great rosters, yet had to coat tail Hakeem to get his ring. Wade's finals play was maybe the greatest finals by an individual ever (MJ had a finals similar), so he gets extra points for doing it on THE biggest stage.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...dedw01&y2=2012

    Wade is a better shot creator, better defender, and was at his very best on the biggest stage.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  2. #152
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    1. jordan
    2. kobe
    3. wade
    4. drexler
    5. Miller


    IMO pistol and west are overrated.
    Last edited by 5ass; 05-18-2012 at 05:02 PM.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    You are acting like Jordan played in the days where television was in black and white and Bill Sharman was coaching. He played against Kobe dude, not sure how you think the sports athletes are so superior to not even 15 years ago...

    vs Richmond

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=jordami01

    kicked his butt

    vs Drexler (considered top 5 at his position)

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=jordami01

    DESTROYED HIM

    vs Smith

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=jordami01

    DESTROYED HIM

    hell, old *** Jordan neutralized Kobe himself. Imagine a younger, prime MJ...

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=jordami01
    You do realize I was talking about offensively, In direct respond to his "Jordan would shut Kobe down" statement so you just proved My point.

    An as for the Kobe vs Jordan, i have a few questions.....1. why did you say old Jordan and not young Kobe? 2. An how does Kobe's = neutralized. this was before Kobe's game evolved and he still got 22 a game. Kobe was almost all of the dribble then. He hadn't even really gotten to playing of the ball yet, much less to the triple threat from the elbow, which is completely unguardable. That is a worthless comparison.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayjay33 View Post
    You do realize I was talking about offensively, In direct respond to his "Jordan would shut Kobe down" statement so you just proved My point.

    An as for the Kobe vs Jordan, i have a few questions.....1. why did you say old Jordan and not young Kobe? 2. An how does Kobe's = neutralized. this was before Kobe's game evolved and he still got 22 a game. Kobe was almost all of the dribble then. He hadn't even really gotten to playing of the ball yet, much less to the triple threat from the elbow, which is completely unguardable. That is a worthless comparison.
    I am talking both ends. Jordan is better, period. I haven't proven anything but Jordan is superior.

    Kobe was in his championship years during over half their meetings bro, and a 39 year old MJ was staying with a 23 year old Kobe. When Jordan was that age, he was giving the Larry Bird led Celtics 63 in the playoffs, and averaging 33-8-8.

    The biggest issue you have is, you keep trying to tell me, and everyone here, that Jordan basically played in this archaic game where the athletes can't compare to today. That is b.s. The athletes 20 years ago were very comparable to today, and you got to actually use contact on the perimeter back then, unlike now.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...dami01&y2=2003

    Regular season, Jordan blows Kobe out of the water. Playoffs, Kobe regresses, Jordan gets even BETTER. These numbers also don't reflect Kobe's decline in a few years, which will create even more seperation.

    Did you bring up Kobe's play from the elbow? Where do you think he saw that? Jordan was the best from the elbow in the history of the game for a wing scorer.

    Look, there is no way you can rationally convince anyone Kobe is a better player than Michael Jordan was. Its foolish to do so.

    Jordan was the better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, and winner. Just the better player. As I said, Kobe is MJ light really. Not sure why Kobe fans can't be happy their guy is top 8 ever, and stop pushing a subject that has zip truth to it.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  5. #155
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    Anyone putting Wade in front of Iverson is delusional. The one win Iverson had in the NBA Finals against the Lakers is more impressive then Wade winning a title. That Lakers team was unstoppable. Say whatever you want. I don't care.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by mp3 View Post
    Anyone putting Wade in front of Iverson is delusional. The one win Iverson had in the NBA Finals against the Lakers is more impressive then Wade winning a title. That Lakers team was unstoppable. Say whatever you want. I don't care.
    Make a real case for Iverson being better than Wade. Good luck.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    I have no problem with someone putting Drexler over Wade, but Clyde's defense was suspect, and he wasn't much of a passer off the drive because he put his head down on the dribble, but lets not act like he didn't play with some great rosters, yet had to coat tail Hakeem to get his ring. Wade's finals play was maybe the greatest finals by an individual ever (MJ had a finals similar), so he gets extra points for doing it on THE biggest stage.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...dedw01&y2=2012

    Wade is a better shot creator, better defender, and was at his very best on the biggest stage.
    I will say that however good his rosters were, both the teams the Blazers lost to in the Finals were better.

    Also, while Drexler didn't have Wade's insane performance in the Finals, he did have pretty good Finals performances:

    24.5 PPG, 8.3 RPG, 6.0 APG, 49.2% FG

    Also, while he ultimately needed Hakeem to win a ring, I wouldn't call it "riding the coattails" like he was completely washed up by that point. He averaged 21.3 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 4.4 APG, 1.8 SPG on 50.6% FG and had a 22.1 PER, a .193 WS/48 and was clearly the 2nd best player on the team during the run.

    And the side by side comparison shows Drexler's whole career, while it only shows Wade's "prime" since we haven't seen his play at later ages (33+).

    When you take into account only their primes Wades WS/48 is .205 and Drexler's is .198, so it is pretty close.

    Ultimately I think Wade is a near lock to suprass Drexler when his career is over (barring some sort of career ending injury), but personally I think they are both near interchangeable in the all-time rankings...

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    So because Kobe copies Jordan's playing style he has an advantage? Look, Kobe will give anyone problems. But there is no way he can hold Jordan. Defensive specialists were routinely destroyed by Jordan, DESPITE being able to grab, hold, and reach. You can't do that today. On top of that, anytime someone guarded Jordan that was his size in space, he went straight to the elbow and posted them up. He was too fast, too strong, and too athletic for Kobe. Remember the dunks and side of the lane to side of the lane layups Jordan would pull? Kobe can't do that, never has been able to. Jordan was more efficient in a time where efficiency was more difficult to come by, he was a stronger defender, knocking anything loose in his area, and as great of a competitior as Kobe is, Michael was the games best competitor, and always rose above the occasion. There is a reason he is regarded by 95+% of the basketball community as the GOAT. Kobe doesn't finish top 5 dude, he is basically MJ light if you will.
    Of course Kobe can't guard Jordan he can't even guard dwade.....MJ would score 40, but Jordan has to play "d" to and IMO Kobe has by far the best skill set, I have ever seen. I'm a coach's kid grew up around and playing basketball my whole life. That doesn't mean my opinion is any better than anyone else's but when watch Kobe to me he has so much more to his game. It's like he copied Jordan then threw in some PP (high post face up from the elbow in triple threat) then toped it off with a little of that nick van exel change of pace game for good mesuare.....stop and start, spins, hesitation, floaters things like that. I would never attempt to compare careers or numbers. But Kobe's game, man most people don't even understand the cross Breeding in Kobe's game how many different style's he has combine into 1. Jordan, PP, van exel. I have never seen anything like it. You could do a whole work shop just using his game film. I don't think Jordan's skill set was anywhere near that dynamic. But like i said that's just my opinion based on what I see. Doesn't mean you and others are wrong to disagree.

  9. #159
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    Kobe
    West
    Wade
    Moses Malone
    Jordan
    Dwight Howard is a Top 5 Center of All-Time, no one in this league can touch him.

    The Orlando Magic are a dominant contender and are a better franchise than I ever thought possible.

    Raph12 is always right.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by mp3 View Post
    Anyone putting Wade in front of Iverson is delusional. The one win Iverson had in the NBA Finals against the Lakers is more impressive then Wade winning a title. That Lakers team was unstoppable. Say whatever you want. I don't care.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayjay33 View Post
    Of course Kobe can't guard Jordan he can't even guard dwade.....MJ would score 40, but Jordan has to play "d" to and IMO Kobe has by far the best skill set, I have ever seen. I'm a coach's kid grew up around and playing basketball my whole life. That doesn't mean my opinion is any better than anyone else's but when watch Kobe to me he has so much more to his game. It's like he copied Jordan then threw in some PP (high post face up from the elbow in triple threat) then toped it off with a little of that nick van exel change of pace game for good mesuare.....stop and start, spins, hesitation, floaters things like that. I would never attempt to compare careers or numbers. But Kobe's game, man most people don't even understand the cross Breeding in Kobe's game how many different style's he has combine into 1. Jordan, PP, van exel. I have never seen anything like it. You could do a whole work shop just using his game film. I don't think Jordan's skill set was anywhere near that dynamic. But like i said that's just my opinion based on what I see. Doesn't mean you and others are wrong to disagree.
    Yea I sort of see where your going with this. Im not arguing with Jordans numbers/accomplishments... side note, Kobe also added that Nowitzki shot this year.
    #Chow!

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    I am talking both ends. Jordan is better, period. I haven't proven anything but Jordan is superior.

    Kobe was in his championship years during over half their meetings bro, and a 39 year old MJ was staying with a 23 year old Kobe. When Jordan was that age, he was giving the Larry Bird led Celtics 63 in the playoffs, and averaging 33-8-8.

    The biggest issue you have is, you keep trying to tell me, and everyone here, that Jordan basically played in this archaic game where the athletes can't compare to today. That is b.s. The athletes 20 years ago were very comparable to today, and you got to actually use contact on the perimeter back then, unlike now.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...dami01&y2=2003

    Regular season, Jordan blows Kobe out of the water. Playoffs, Kobe regresses, Jordan gets even BETTER. These numbers also don't reflect Kobe's decline in a few years, which will create even more seperation.

    Did you bring up Kobe's play from the elbow? Where do you think he saw that? Jordan was the best from the elbow in the history of the game for a wing scorer.

    Look, there is no way you can rationally convince anyone Kobe is a better player than Michael Jordan was. Its foolish to do so.
    Jordan was the better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, and winner. Just the better player. As I said, Kobe is MJ light really. Not sure why Kobe fans can't be happy their guy is top 8 ever, and stop pushing a subject that has zip truth to it.
    1. But i was responding to him say kobe would shut jordan down. and what you posted preety much echoed that. So i don't see what was your point, unless you didn't really read what was said before responding.

    2. please don't put words in my mouth i never said that let alone keep try to tell you are anyone that. Your making that up yourself or you have me confused with some one else.

    3. Why would I try, I don't care what you are anyone else thinks i gave my opinion, you disagree so be it. An I'am a fan certain guy's "games" not the guy.

    4. I'll sit and watch film with anyone who thinks Jordan is more skilled that Kobe and we can break it down and see. Not sure why fans try to judge these things when they can't actually see half of what went on, in any given play. I bet you 75% of the people on here can't tell you what Kobe or Jordan does of the ball or let alone how they manipulate defenders feet when they have it, so how could they know who's better? But like i said it's just an opinion, I'm not trying to convince anyone else.
    Last edited by jayjay33; 05-18-2012 at 06:04 PM.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluefire7002 View Post
    Yea I sort of see where your going with this. Im not arguing with Jordans numbers/accomplishments... side note, Kobe also added that Nowitzki shot this year.
    yes, He did steal that from dirk. lol His lift, is almost all gone so now he is kicking out his legs to create space between him and the defender. its just like when he countered defender trying stick there arm out on his triple threat to prevent him from pulling up, with that swing through bringing his arm up under the defenders to force a foul. So guy's had to start pulling that arm back. next thing you know everybody was doing it. but now the league has changed that to a no shooting foul.....which I thought was BS

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ass View Post
    1. jordan
    2. kobe
    3. wade
    4. drexler
    5. Miller


    IMO pistol and west are overrated.
    Why West?

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakers211221 View Post
    I disagree. If you want to be technical, Jerry West was a combo guard (played both PG and SG), but played mostly SG until later in his career...and even when he lined up in the PG position, he played like a SG (although, later in his career he did facilitate the ball a lot more). Most consider him a shooting guard for ranking purposes. Just Google top shooting guards of all time and West will be on just about every list. ESPN, Fox Sports, Yahoo Sports, Bleacher Report, Hoops Manifesto, and Lakers Nation (on their list for top 5 Lakers SGs) all list him as a SG on their top SGs of all-time list.
    I'm glad to see you did your homework and checked damn near every list you could before you made your opinion. Now its my turn to tell you some stuff that aren't on those lists.

    Jerry West initiated the Los Angeles offense in every season he played outside of his rookie seasons when Elgin was doing more of the initiating at the 3 and West played mostly SG after that it was Jerry West offense to run. He led the Los Angeles back court in every single season in which he played in assists, something which even Magic Johnson himself couldn't accomplish. He lead the league in APG in 71-72 something which throughout the history of the game only point guards has done.

    In 66-67 when Gail Goodrich won himself a starting spot in the back court along with West then Jerry went from being a combo guard type to taking total control of the team's offense and being the player who was solely responsible for running the offense. With Goodrich as his running mate West played ran the PG on offense but in most cases guard the opposing teams best guard like he did earlier when he played as a combo guard.

    The reason people think that West was a SG was because of the fact that he was
    1. bigger than most PGs of the time and was often guarded by the opposing team's SG
    2. played such solid defense that he often found himself guarding the opposing teams shooting guard
    3. He wasn't your prototypical PG (eg Guy Rodgers, Bob Cousy, Lenny Wilkins or Andy Phillip), he was a PG who much like Derrick Rose was score first and pass after.
    4. In West's days the G position really wasn't as defined as it has grown to have been so looking back most rate him as his team's SG because of great volume scoring ability.

    None of those things however made him a SG. It has just clouded the judgement of those who look back and try to decide whether he played a PG role or an SG role.

    West received the ball on the in bounds ran the offense, controlled the tempo (though in most of the time it was one tempo... high lol), he was like the coach on the floor, he was a great passer, ball handler, great vision, he spoke on defense (I never heard/saw this but I've read it before) and solid in the one on one. He was the point guard of his team.

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