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  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisdan26 View Post
    Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions but lets be real here guys. We're all looking at this after it absolutely blew up. If Pineda actually worked out in the off season and came to camp in shape and was performing close to how he did last year, you'd all be saying "I knew this was a great move!!!".

    There was no room whatsoever for Montero on the team (unless you want to DH him and then drop his trade value by a ton).

    Pineda was a top prospect going into 2011 and put up very good numbers in his rookie season. If you asked me if the Yankees should trade Montero for a top prospect who put up these numbers in his rookie year and is 22 years old, I would have said, "no doubt about it."

    WHIP: 1.10
    BAA: .211
    K/9: 9.11
    K/BB: 3.15
    BABIP: .258

    Plus a career WHIP of under 1.10 and a K/9 of 9 in his minor league career (400+ IP)

    Coming into the year (assuming he was in 2011 shape) he had #2 stuff/numbers and arguably could have put up better numbers than C.C.
    i agree with just about everything u said and it was well written. The simple fact to me is that we traded for an unfinished product that we had to finish developing. With as bad as the Yanks are at developing elite starter u would hope we could have gotten a finished product for Montero.. I actually really liked that trade when it happened because of the upside we were getting back but to loose Montero who could have been a huge part of this team this yr, for no production at all this yr and a questionable future next yr and beyond as a fan pisses me off.

    Were having trouble in the heart of our order so far this yr, Montero probably could have gone a long way to help out of line up. I'm just pissed right now at the whole situation, i'll probably become alot more rational after i cool down

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by carljam1 View Post
    If you're holding your statement as conjecture, which I don't feel you are, then I apologize for jumping on you. But it seems to me that you hold everything you are saying as undeniable fact, and refusing to hear any argument against it. If I'm wrong on this front, then again, I apologize. Countless people have presented arguments against what you believe, very good points at that. Curt Schilling, Al Leiter, etc. Those people also see the opposite side of this, Mark Mulder, even Brien Taylor, etc. No one here will disagree with you that this is a serious injury, but I think it is insulting to absolutely deny the idea of people "hoping for the best" or "seeing the silver lining." It was a minimal tear, which while still career threatening, gives hope for a recovery. There is a lot going against Pineda, but there is also some hope going for him.

    Again, if you really see this as a 50/50 situation, then there is nothing to argue about. I don't really care about Cashman as much as it may seem, I only concentrate on the Pineda situation. I don't think Cashman is as terrible as people have made him out to be, but then again I live in Baltimore, and the Orioles ownership make the Yankees look like gods. I'm tired of senseless arguing, because it makes me look like a whiny jerk, and I'm sure it doesn't come off well for you either.
    I'm starting to feel that warm, fuzzy happiness and puppies feeling coming over me.

    Of course everything I'm putting out there about Pineda's recovery is conjecture and supposition rather than fact. I DO feel very very strongly however that this is the end of the line for him, but then again IT IS my opinion and, as you have probably noticed, I am willing to defend a position to the hilt when I honestly think it is truth.

    Where we are getting crossed up is on Cashman. THAT resume is crystal clear. This is just another notch on the infamous bedpost of Brian Cashman's tenure as talent provacateur extraordinarre.

    It sounds like we are in a little more of an agreement than we think.

    Is this an olive branch..........sort of.

    Ball's in your court.

    Oh.....and by the way.....just so you know.....this is my real vocab.....if that puts your mind at ease.

    This IS how I talk, and no I'm not a pretentious prick in real life.
    Sounds good to me. Obviously no one for sure knows how Pineda will turn out. It's all a matter of hope and the effort he puts into it. We'll just have to wait and see.

    As for Cashman, I don't think this trade is the reason for him to be fired. Again, prospects were traded for prospects. It is going to take time for them to develop. We will know is Cashman screwed up in a few years. For his other doings, well.... I can't defend him because a lot of them were boneheaded moves. Again, I think there are worse GMs and there definitely better GMs. Maybe a fresh GM would be good for the Yankees. Do you honestly have anyone in mind to take his position though? Just out of curiosity.

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBadOwl View Post
    I disagree. Trading a prospect at a position of surplus for an equal prospect at a position of need is a great move.

    Pineda projected to be an ace. Can't get any better than that. His scouting reports, peripheral stats, and physical stature suggested that he had a great shot at being an ace. I personally still think he does. His injury is not NEARLY as severe as Peavy's or Webb's or Schmidt's. I think he'll follow the Schilling/Leiter/Carpenter track with his recovery.

    As someone who's had the same surgery and gone through the recovery, I have little doubt that he'll come back throwing just as hard, if not harder, than before. Schilling alluded to this, he likely tore it because he was overexerting a weak shoulder. The rehab exercises focus a LOT on the rotator cuff, which could strengthen it to the point where it's much stronger than it was pre-injury, as was the case with Schilling an Leiter.

    Also, San Francisco wasn't ever trading Lincecum. And then, giving up our best prospects and our best position player would be a much worse move than surrendering one good prospect and one middle prospect for a young star and high-end pitching prospect. The Pineda/Montero deal makes MUCH more sense than any Lincecum deal would have.




    This is why I hate the "OMG CASHMAN DIDNT TRADE FOR HAREN" argument. This was when Joba was one of the top pitching prospects in the game, and Haren was struggling. At the time, it made zero sense.

    Also, kind of a side note, but Sauron, nobody is going to take your arguments seriously if you keep talking down to us and acting immature in all of your posts. Also, go ahead and save the oversized text and cricket emoticons. If you weren't so arrogant, people would take you more seriously. But talking down to us isn't a way to win us over. You're coming off as pompous, and it looks like you're massaging your own ego by pretending that you're intellectually superior to everyone here.
    No he wasn't not at that time.

    It didn't make sense if they had decisions on starting him again. Since he stayed as a reliever it was a bad move.
    Friend: I think the NBA payed off the Heat in the first yr because of the politics. They threw game four and they payed Lebron because they were angry with what he did. So he had pay one way or another.

    F:There is no one in the draft coming out and trading players isn't going to happen. The Lakers are in trouble.

    F: Vogel doesn't run that team. Shaw does. If he leaves they are going to suck and Vogel will get fired.

    -Heat fan


  4. #394
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    Hold on.....Pineda is hurt?
    Leo's Thought Of The Day



    BREAKING NEWS: Sources tell me it's official. We stink.

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by carljam1 View Post
    Sounds good to me. Obviously no one for sure knows how Pineda will turn out. It's all a matter of hope and the effort he puts into it. We'll just have to wait and see.

    As for Cashman, I don't think this trade is the reason for him to be fired. Again, prospects were traded for prospects. It is going to take time for them to develop. We will know is Cashman screwed up in a few years. For his other doings, well.... I can't defend him because a lot of them were boneheaded moves. Again, I think there are worse GMs and there definitely better GMs. Maybe a fresh GM would be good for the Yankees. Do you honestly have anyone in mind to take his position though? Just out of curiosity.
    Yes.

    Rylinkus.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    Yes.

    Rylinkus.
    No way. I would be perfect for the job and bring Dunn with me.

    Masahiro Tanaka

    11-1| 99.2 IP| 10.20 K/9| 1.44 BB/9| 0.90 HR/9| 1.99 ERA| 2.70 FIP| 2.32 xFIP| 2.9 fWAR

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees 1903 View Post
    No way. I would be perfect for the job and bring Dunn with me.


    Oh wait.....you passed on Lewis.



    And so, a new era begins.....

  8. #398
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    Wow, 27 pages on this. Unreal.....

  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBadOwl View Post
    I disagree. Trading a prospect at a position of surplus for an equal prospect at a position of need is a great move.

    Pineda projected to be an ace. Can't get any better than that. His scouting reports, peripheral stats, and physical stature suggested that he had a great shot at being an ace. I personally still think he does. His injury is not NEARLY as severe as Peavy's or Webb's or Schmidt's. I think he'll follow the Schilling/Leiter/Carpenter track with his recovery.

    As someone who's had the same surgery and gone through the recovery, I have little doubt that he'll come back throwing just as hard, if not harder, than before. Schilling alluded to this, he likely tore it because he was overexerting a weak shoulder. The rehab exercises focus a LOT on the rotator cuff, which could strengthen it to the point where it's much stronger than it was pre-injury, as was the case with Schilling an Leiter.

    Also, San Francisco wasn't ever trading Lincecum. And then, giving up our best prospects and our best position player would be a much worse move than surrendering one good prospect and one middle prospect for a young star and high-end pitching prospect. The Pineda/Montero deal makes MUCH more sense than any Lincecum deal would have.




    This is why I hate the "OMG CASHMAN DIDNT TRADE FOR HAREN" argument. This was when Joba was one of the top pitching prospects in the game, and Haren was struggling. At the time, it made zero sense.

    Also, kind of a side note, but Sauron, nobody is going to take your arguments seriously if you keep talking down to us and acting immature in all of your posts. Also, go ahead and save the oversized text and cricket emoticons. If you weren't so arrogant, people would take you more seriously. But talking down to us isn't a way to win us over. You're coming off as pompous, and it looks like you're massaging your own ego by pretending that you're intellectually superior to everyone here.
    at the time of the Haren Trade Joba was in the bp and the front office was saying he wasn't likely to get another shot at starting. Joba was a middle reliever at the time and whoever else they wanted wasn't a top prospect. That deal for Harren was an absolute steal, the only reason they didn't make that trade is because they were certain Lee was going to sign with them in the off season and Pettitte was coming back. As far as Harens numbers that yr he was playing for an absolutely awful team with no chance at a playoff berth, i find that a much more likely option reflecting his numbers than he wasn't pitching well. He's been an ace for the Angels since the trade moving to a much tougher league. I will never understand why they didn't make that deal

  10. #400
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    I'm pretty certain Cashman didn't want to weaken his bullpen just to shore up the rotation.
    "I'm an administrator. I'm a good listener. I would not pass myself off as an evaluator of talent"

    - Brian Cashman, GM of the Yankees

  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webslinger View Post
    I'm pretty certain Cashman didn't want to weaken his bullpen just to shore up the rotation.
    not making that trade for Haren was probably the most pissed i have ever been at Cashman, I don't know who to blame for this entire Pineda ordeal but it comes in a close 2nd

    A great BP is nice to have but given the chance to get a 28 yr #1 starter signed long term for what they wanted was just a stupid move IMO. I will never get over the lack of a non move their and that squarely rests on his shoulders. Its not like they were asking for 2-3 of our top prospects. Some will point out Nova has been very good and trading him would have been a mistake but he's not even close to being in Harens league

  12. #402
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    Speaking of Haren, it seems logic has finally won out among the koolaid drinkers. How anyone can possibly argue against that trade is beyond me.
    "I'm an administrator. I'm a good listener. I would not pass myself off as an evaluator of talent"

    - Brian Cashman, GM of the Yankees

  13. #403
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    i can argue, screw haren, joba is my fave player and i want him here

  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by infernoscurse View Post
    i can argue, screw haren, joba is my fave player and i want him here
    Joba is one of my favorite players too but it was dumb for them to keep him if all he was going to be was a reliever. Sure during that season they said the door was still open for him to start but as we see that's not the case.
    Friend: I think the NBA payed off the Heat in the first yr because of the politics. They threw game four and they payed Lebron because they were angry with what he did. So he had pay one way or another.

    F:There is no one in the draft coming out and trading players isn't going to happen. The Lakers are in trouble.

    F: Vogel doesn't run that team. Shaw does. If he leaves they are going to suck and Vogel will get fired.

    -Heat fan


  15. #405
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    I just saw Joba applied to join The Flying Melindo Brothers.

    Gonna be cool.
    Leo's Thought Of The Day



    BREAKING NEWS: Sources tell me it's official. We stink.

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