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  1. #376
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    "Massive decision gone wrong right now," said Cashman regarding Pined trade.

    Cashman also said the Yankees staff gave Pineda an MRI during his physical prior to approving the trade... Take that how you want.

    http://sport-ne.ws/eaq

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Dunn View Post
    Probably the most agreeable statement made thus far
    agreed if Cashman would have made the trade for Harren so much of our pitching problems over the last to yrs wouldn't have been a problem. I still think not making that trade was a huge F up by Cashman

    If Cash is coming out taking responsibility for the debacle, then why shouldn't we question if he should be the GM anymore. This wasn't a trade that happens all the time this was supposed to be the trade that played a huge part in our future. Pineda's gone for the yr and i really really hope he comes back 100% because thats what best for the Yankees but someone screwed up bad in this deal and should be held responsible. George would have fired 3 or 4 guys by now the brothers need to show leadership and that their not going to except this level of incompetence

  3. #378
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    Hopefully his rehab goes well and he will be able to pitch next season. Showing up to camp in shape this time wouldn't hurt either.

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    agreed if Cashman would have made the trade for Harren so much of our pitching problems over the last to yrs wouldn't have been a problem. I still think not making that trade was a huge F up by Cashman

    If Cash is coming out taking responsibility for the debacle, then why shouldn't we question if he should be the GM anymore. This wasn't a trade that happens all the time this was supposed to be the trade that played a huge part in our future. Pineda's gone for the yr and i really really hope he comes back 100% because thats what best for the Yankees but someone screwed up bad in this deal and should be held responsible. George would have fired 3 or 4 guys by now the brothers need to show leadership and that their not going to except this level of incompetence
    First of all, George wouldn't have fired anyone because George had no faith in prospects and would have traded Montero long ago for some other team's declining veteran.

    Second, it's not incompetence if the injury wasn't foreseeable, and although Dr. Webslinger, M.D., swears he saw it coming a mile away, the guys who actually get paid by the Yankees to make medical assessments clearly didn't.
    Last edited by theslick1; 04-27-2012 at 08:40 PM.

  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    First of all, George wouldn't have fired anyone because George had no faith in prospects and would have traded Montero long ago for some other team's declining veteran.

    Second, it's not incompetence if the injury wasn't foreseeable, and although Dr. Webslinger, M.D., swears he saw it coming a mile away, the guys who actually get paid to by the Yankees to make medical assessments clearly didn't.
    your right I'm just really pissed off about the whole thing and i feel like someone should be held responsible. The Yanks didn't do Pineda any favors by telling a guy that made the AS team last yr he had to earn a spot in the rotation. It probably made him press through things he normally wouldn't have if he didn't feel uncertain about his future this yr. I also don't think having him throw a ton of breaking balls with an out an out of shape arm did him any favors either

    the Yanks have incredible bad record in finishing the development process with almost ready MLB pitchers. I don't know who should be dirrectly held responsible for this trade but some one does

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueYankee View Post
    Exactly Clipper. We wont know anything until we get to that point but people are already putting Pineda in a coffin. I wont mention any names...
    Hey!

    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    According to Jayson Stark, Arizona wanted Joba, Nova, and two other prospects.

    At the time, Haren was 7-8 with a 4.60 ERA, he led all major league pitchers with 161 hits allowed, and he was 2nd in HRs surrendered with 23. He was also owed more than 30M, and the amount of money that would be picked up was an issue.

    In hindsight, maybe they should have done the deal. But at the time, Joba wasn't hurt, and Haren was struggling and expensive for how he was performing. Even now, I don't think adding Haren at the cost of Nova would amount to anything more than marginal improvement.
    They wanted Joba, Nova, Nunez and Adams. That is an absolute steal for a 28 year old Haren. Are we to believe that a single half season is all it takes to derail a career ace? Does this mean that a career journeyman would be a more attractive trade target at the same price if he had an all star first half? And 30 million dollars over 3 years for a pitcher the caliber of a Dan Haren is ridiculously cheap. There is absolutely no argument here.

    As for the Haren and Nova comparison, you got to be kidding me. Haren is a guaranteed ace. You have no idea what you are getting from Nova start to start, month to month, season to season. If he hadn't learned the slider he wouldn't even be in the rotation right now. As it is, the league is hitting .400 against him. Nova has been extremely lucky thus far.

    Let's not try and pretend that at the time Nova was worth more than a Warren, Phelps or Noesi. Actually he may have been wroth less because those pitchers have more of a repertoire than Nova did. Are you telling me you wouldn't trade a middle reliever, 2 utility infielders and a back end starting pitching prospect for Dan Haren?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBadOwl View Post
    I disagree. Trading a prospect at a position of surplus for an equal prospect at a position of need is a great move.

    Pineda projected to be an ace. Can't get any better than that. His scouting reports, peripheral stats, and physical stature suggested that he had a great shot at being an ace. I personally still think he does. His injury is not NEARLY as severe as Peavy's or Webb's or Schmidt's. I think he'll follow the Schilling/Leiter/Carpenter track with his recovery.

    As someone who's had the same surgery and gone through the recovery, I have little doubt that he'll come back throwing just as hard, if not harder, than before. Schilling alluded to this, he likely tore it because he was overexerting a weak shoulder. The rehab exercises focus a LOT on the rotator cuff, which could strengthen it to the point where it's much stronger than it was pre-injury, as was the case with Schilling an Leiter.

    Also, San Francisco wasn't ever trading Lincecum. And then, giving up our best prospects and our best position player would be a much worse move than surrendering one good prospect and one middle prospect for a young star and high-end pitching prospect. The Pineda/Montero deal makes MUCH more sense than any Lincecum deal would have.




    This is why I hate the "OMG CASHMAN DIDNT TRADE FOR HAREN" argument. This was when Joba was one of the top pitching prospects in the game, and Haren was struggling. At the time, it made zero sense.

    Also, kind of a side note, but Sauron, nobody is going to take your arguments seriously if you keep talking down to us and acting immature in all of your posts. Also, go ahead and save the oversized text and cricket emoticons. If you weren't so arrogant, people would take you more seriously. But talking down to us isn't a way to win us over. You're coming off as pompous, and it looks like you're massaging your own ego by pretending that you're intellectually superior to everyone here.
    Anyone who suggests Dan Haren isn't worth a middle reliever has absolutely no credibility whatsoever. Yeah, that trade would have made ZERO sense. We wouldn't want another ace on this team.

    The yankees have alot of catchers in the minors, so they did trade from a position of surplus, but not strength. I am not certain if romine will be anything other than a backup and the others like Sanchez are all in low a ball.

    As for Pineda, I don't believe anyone of actual credit actually projected him to be an ace. The yankees were trading for a high upside project. That's like projecting Ogando to be an ace. If the yankees wanted to trade for a potential ace then they would have traded for Latos. Evidently, Cashman saw something in Pineda that he didn't see in Latos.

    Quote Originally Posted by el_primo_nano View Post
    He got this tear in rehab. Idk how the hell nobody spoke to this guy when the trade happened. Let this be a lesson that the Yanks need talk to guys and let them know how the show is run over here. To come to camp overweight is preposterous, Cash cant allow for that to happen. You gotta protect your investment or get burned like this...
    They did speak to him.
    Last edited by Webslinger; 04-28-2012 at 09:03 AM.
    "I'm an administrator. I'm a good listener. I would not pass myself off as an evaluator of talent"

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  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    your right I'm just really pissed off about the whole thing and i feel like someone should be held responsible. The Yanks didn't do Pineda any favors by telling a guy that made the AS team last yr he had to earn a spot in the rotation. It probably made him press through things he normally wouldn't have if he didn't feel uncertain about his future this yr. I also don't think having him throw a ton of breaking balls with an out an out of shape arm did him any favors either

    the Yanks have incredible bad record in finishing the development process with almost ready MLB pitchers. I don't know who should be dirrectly held responsible for this trade but some one does
    The shoulder issue was probably a lingering problem. If it didn't happen now it would have eventually happened in the very near future. No amount of "pressing" would have caused it if you had a strong healthy shoulder to be begin with.
    "I'm an administrator. I'm a good listener. I would not pass myself off as an evaluator of talent"

    - Brian Cashman, GM of the Yankees

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by carljam1 View Post
    If you're holding your statement as conjecture, which I don't feel you are, then I apologize for jumping on you. But it seems to me that you hold everything you are saying as undeniable fact, and refusing to hear any argument against it. If I'm wrong on this front, then again, I apologize. Countless people have presented arguments against what you believe, very good points at that. Curt Schilling, Al Leiter, etc. Those people also see the opposite side of this, Mark Mulder, even Brien Taylor, etc. No one here will disagree with you that this is a serious injury, but I think it is insulting to absolutely deny the idea of people "hoping for the best" or "seeing the silver lining." It was a minimal tear, which while still career threatening, gives hope for a recovery. There is a lot going against Pineda, but there is also some hope going for him.

    Again, if you really see this as a 50/50 situation, then there is nothing to argue about. I don't really care about Cashman as much as it may seem, I only concentrate on the Pineda situation. I don't think Cashman is as terrible as people have made him out to be, but then again I live in Baltimore, and the Orioles ownership make the Yankees look like gods. I'm tired of senseless arguing, because it makes me look like a whiny jerk, and I'm sure it doesn't come off well for you either.
    I'm starting to feel that warm, fuzzy happiness and puppies feeling coming over me.

    Of course everything I'm putting out there about Pineda's recovery is conjecture and supposition rather than fact. I DO feel very very strongly however that this is the end of the line for him, but then again IT IS my opinion and, as you have probably noticed, I am willing to defend a position to the hilt when I honestly think it is truth.

    Where we are getting crossed up is on Cashman. THAT resume is crystal clear. This is just another notch on the infamous bedpost of Brian Cashman's tenure as talent provacateur extraordinarre.

    It sounds like we are in a little more of an agreement than we think.

    Is this an olive branch..........sort of.

    Ball's in your court.

    Oh.....and by the way.....just so you know.....this is my real vocab.....if that puts your mind at ease.

    This IS how I talk, and no I'm not a pretentious prick in real life.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  9. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webslinger View Post
    Hey!
    They wanted Joba, Nova, Nunez and Adams. That is an absolute steal for a 28 year old Haren. Are we to believe that a single half season is all it takes to derail a career ace? Does this mean that a career journeyman would be a more attractive trade target at the same price if he had an all star first half? And 30 million dollars over 3 years for a pitcher the caliber of a Dan Haren is ridiculously cheap. There is absolutely no argument here.

    As for the Haren and Nova comparison, you got to be kidding me. Haren is a guaranteed ace. You have no idea what you are getting from Nova start to start, month to month, season to season. If he hadn't learned the slider he wouldn't even be in the rotation right now. As it is, the league is hitting .400 against him. Nova has been extremely lucky thus far.

    Let's not try and pretend that at the time Nova was worth more than a Warren, Phelps or Noesi. Actually he may have been wroth less because those pitchers have more of a repertoire than Nova did. Are you telling me you wouldn't trade a middle reliever, 2 utility infielders and a back end starting pitching prospect for Dan Haren?
    You have the benefit now of hindsight. Cashman didn't when this deal was made. You know that Joba has been shut down, but he wasn't shut down when the deal was made. You know that Haren rebounded from a pretty mediocre first half of 2010 and pitched a solid second half for the Angels. There was no way of knowing that would turn out to be the case when the deal happened.

    Can you honestly tell me that if Cashman had dealt the four players you named and had Haren pitched in New York the way he did in Arizona (i.e., leading the league in hits surrendered and 2nd in HR allowed with a mid 4 ERA), you wouldn't have been leading the parade for his firing?

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webslinger View Post
    The shoulder issue was probably a lingering problem. If it didn't happen now it would have eventually happened in the very near future. No amount of "pressing" would have caused it if you had a strong healthy shoulder to be begin with.
    probably is the key word, they ran every test on him possible before making the trade and they all came back clean. I can't find anything saying he had shoulder problems before they made the deal. Your right with the mechanics and the max effort Pineda threw the ball it was very likely some kind of injury would have happened.

    I know u guys think I'm one of the cool aid drinkers, fine i'm just hopeful that Pineda recovers fully and becomes a good pitcher for us because I want the best for the Yanks as a team. Pineda never turning into anything is the worst possible scenario for the Yanks. I agree with u that someone should be held responsible for this I'm just not sure who.

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    I know u guys think I'm one of the cool aid drinkers.....
    Not really dude.

    I am one of those guys though who feels George wouldve ripped someone a new one or fired them outright if he was forced to withold a prospect during other high powerred negotiations and then let him go for this deal. I dont think vintage boss wouldve liked to have been hyped and overhyped on a guy to the point of protecting him and then watch him frittered away in a historically horrible transaction like this.....


    And so, a new era begins.....

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    First of all, George wouldn't have fired anyone because George had no faith in prospects and would have traded Montero long ago for some other team's declining veteran.

    Second, it's not incompetence if the injury wasn't foreseeable, and although Dr. Webslinger, M.D., swears he saw it coming a mile away, the guys who actually get paid by the Yankees to make medical assessments clearly didn't.
    I think though, in all fairness, that if George had been forced (in as much as anyone could 'force' George to do anything) to protect Montero for as long as we did and then watch THIS happen right when he was on the cusp of the major league squad, George would have been rightfully AND epically livid.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  13. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    Not really dude.

    I am one of those guys though who feels George wouldve ripped someone a new one or fired them outright if he was forced to withold a prospect during other high powerred negotiations and then let him go for this deal. I dont think vintage boss wouldve liked to have been hyped and overhyped on a guy to the point of protecting him and then watch him frittered away in a historically horrible transaction like this.....
    i think i said a very similar thing about what i thought the Boss would have done a when he was running things. Most times U and i disagree that all faults on everything can be laid at Cashmans feet but not this one. He could have made numerous trades including Montero for far move proven pitchers, he didn't. Pineda was his guy that he wanted, i realize that the number of cheap yr weighed heavily into that and that part made sense. I still stand by that if Pineda is healthy, with the current make up of our roster this would have been a good deal for the Yanks, now with Pineda's future way up in the air its a complete blunder. Someone needs to be held responsible for this and Cashman is say most of it is his fault.
    I also think that the brother Steinbrener aren't completely innocent in all of this either, pushing for the lower payroll really limited who Cashman was allowed to pursue so he was forced to take bigger chances. So again i don't think this is all Cashs fault. If the scouts didn't raise a big red flag about their concerns about Pinedas motion and max effort delivery, they either have poor scouts or not enough which i have said before.
    The medical staff ran every test possible on Pineda before the deal was done, they had every record and an extended time period to run test on Pineda before the deal was complete, they did their due diligence. It was like 2-3 weeks before the deal was made official so they could go over his injury history with a fine tooth comb
    My biggest grip is they got an unfinished pitcher for Montero. We ve had 3 front of the rotation hugely talented pitchers that have come through to us and they haven't turned out well. Joba who probably had the highest ceiling is now probably a 6th inning guy if he makes it back, Hughes is a debacle no matter what way u look at it and now Pineda. To me their terrible at developing high ceiling arms when they get to the upper levels and i don't see how thats debatable. With Banuelos and to a lesser extent Betances that scares the crap out of me for their future.

    The extensive medical staff gave Pineda a clean bill of health, ran every test not to mention they had his complete medical history from the M's and didn't red flag him. So IMO this had to have happened since he was with the Yanks. I think teaching an out of shape arm an new breaking pitch, especially when he pitched more innings in his rookie yr than he was used to was foolish, telling a kid that was a rookie AS that he had to pitch for his job probably made him push harder to get through thing than he normally would have spoken up about was a bad idea. Either way the Brothers, Levine and Cashman were all on board for this trade

    One giant thing that jumps out at me is the Yanks have a recent history of doing a very poor job developing high profile arms. Those guys that point to Nova as success need to remember he was never projected to be anything more than a back end starter/ long relief type pitcher. I still think its a minor miracle that he has done well this far thus far. Maybe they need better pitching coaches or MILB pitching coordinator but something needs to change their. I truly believe Pinedas injuries have more to do with what he went through in ST rather than the M's. I don't think it was the M's hiding something, we played a big part in this as well

    All that said as far shoulder injuries go Pinedas is about best case that u can hope for, especially since its not a complete tear, its not a rotator cuff and they can fix him without opening him up. As a Yankee fan i'm very hopeful that he makes a full return and 80% will have to do with his work ethic in rehab. I still want the kid to be really good for us in the future because facts are we need him going forward. Hopefully this rehab will make him more of a pitcher now just a flame thrower and on a positive note in most young pitchers rehabs they have them trow all of CH, see Chris Garcia. The only silver lining in this is how good Campos as looked hopefully they don't mess that up

    If u guys want to argue that this is all on one person i disagree, IMO their is alot of blame to go to quite a few people. I just know that i will always be extremely skeptical of any big trade that involves us in acquire an young, unfinished pitcher, especially one who is supposed to make a big impact right away.

    As a Yankee fan no matter what the failure rate is on shoulders I hope Pineda makes a full recovery. Just my opinion after the surgery the kid should go down to the DR and have the same procedure Colon had which obviously works. Even though its not an approved surgery, having the plasma spinning with a big dose of HGH mixed in greatly improves the recover process

    As a Yankee fan i'm rooting for the kid that he comes back to be somewhat the pitcher we traded for. Going off on examples of pitchers that never were the same may after similar surgeries just so we can point fingers makes now sense to me, even though i believe somebody should be held responsible. Not thinking he's ever going to be the same, if thats what happens does nothing but make the Yanks was worse for the future.

    I feel like i'm getting killed on hear because i am trying to look for all the positives i can for a full recovery. He's ours now, Monteros gone and he could play a huge role for us in the future
    Last edited by dayners81; 04-28-2012 at 05:32 AM.

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    You have the benefit now of hindsight. Cashman didn't when this deal was made. You know that Joba has been shut down, but he wasn't shut down when the deal was made. You know that Haren rebounded from a pretty mediocre first half of 2010 and pitched a solid second half for the Angels. There was no way of knowing that would turn out to be the case when the deal happened.

    Can you honestly tell me that if Cashman had dealt the four players you named and had Haren pitched in New York the way he did in Arizona (i.e., leading the league in hits surrendered and 2nd in HR allowed with a mid 4 ERA), you wouldn't have been leading the parade for his firing?
    First of all, I don't judge trades after the fact. I form an opinion the minute I learn there are talks, or when they are concluded, and I stand by that opinion no matter what the outcome is, so I have no benefit of hindsight.

    Secondly, a 28 year old ace having a bad first half is always worth more than a middle reliever and three b or c level prospects. That's just basic common sense. For me to not make that deal would mean I have no common sense. There is infinitely less risk associated with the Haren deal then the Pineda one.
    "I'm an administrator. I'm a good listener. I would not pass myself off as an evaluator of talent"

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    Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions but lets be real here guys. We're all looking at this after it absolutely blew up. If Pineda actually worked out in the off season and came to camp in shape and was performing close to how he did last year, you'd all be saying "I knew this was a great move!!!".

    There was no room whatsoever for Montero on the team (unless you want to DH him and then drop his trade value by a ton).

    Pineda was a top prospect going into 2011 and put up very good numbers in his rookie season. If you asked me if the Yankees should trade Montero for a top prospect who put up these numbers in his rookie year and is 22 years old, I would have said, "no doubt about it."

    WHIP: 1.10
    BAA: .211
    K/9: 9.11
    K/BB: 3.15
    BABIP: .258

    Plus a career WHIP of under 1.10 and a K/9 of 9 in his minor league career (400+ IP)

    Coming into the year (assuming he was in 2011 shape) he had #2 stuff/numbers and arguably could have put up better numbers than C.C.

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