Ed Davis or Amir Johnson?

[Byronicle]

Bingo.. I've been thinking about this one for a while..

most likely though is a Randy Foye for Amir Johnson swap because I dont think Clippers want anymore young players, they want experience

[B2B]

You have your opinions, I have mine. By the way the opportunity hadn't presented itself when BC committed himself to the path of hiring a new coach.

You must really dislike BC, even one of his better moves (IMO), the hiring of Casey, your criticizing.

BC changed paths because of the availability of several coaches & the need to improve team defence. Dallas actually called to let him know about Casey & his availability. He took advantage of the situation, he waits till next season, Casey is coaching else-ware...


The 2 possible paths taken.

#1, Pick up Triano's option, Remain a poor defensive team & maybe be a couple draft slots better. (There are worse teams than the Raptors tanking right now, those potential slots would be no guarantee).

#2 Get a good defensive coach in Casey, as this year has proven. Put a good system in place & still tank. (How many mins did Alabi play last night after Raptors surprised the Hawks Sunday?. Alabi + 3 d-leaguers, don't know how much more BC can do to help this team lose other than asking the players themselves to throw games, which none of us should want.)

This team & youth had progression this season, no way can I be mad or upset with that, it's the difference between perpetual tanking teams.

I know our opinions differ but I rather lose out on a draft slot or 2 & have a good coach in place. I support the tank but in no way can I be mad at BC's choice to hire Casey.

[B2B]

I don't understand why you're so sure Davis wouldn't accept a back-up PF role as a 6th man sort of player. I know its a little different than a James Harden/Ginobili situation because Davis would be playing behind an all-star calibre starter. But throughout the game Casey might decide to go small and have Davis play minutes at the 5. He can easily average about 25-30 mpg. Plus with how often Bargs gets injured, having Davis as an insurance starter at PF would be awesome.

My comment was opinion based on what I would want if I were Davis, nothing I said was definitive.

The difference is OKC/Spurs are contenders. If they were a **** team I would put money Harden would want & think he deserves to start there or else-ware.

It took me a while to make my decision with my own poll lol, but as much as I would hate to let go of Amir I think that's the best choice. I think that if Davis got as many minutes as Amir did consistently, he'd be putting up slightly better numbers. I think Amir has pretty much reached his peak, Davis surely has a ways to go still. I know Davis would fetch more in terms of trade value, but that's simply because he's a more valuable player lol so I say keep him.

Amir is an ideal 3rd big for this team.

Question is, is it smarter to waste Davis' trade value to have him coming off the bench instead of Amir, if he's not going to surpass Bargnani as a starter?.

On a team lacking in talent I rather have that value in a position where it can potentially start. Harden is coming off the bench because they can afford him too.

[Bramaca]

You must really dislike BC, even one of his better moves (IMO), the hiring of Casey, your criticizing.

BC changed paths because of the availability of several coaches & the need to improve team defence. Dallas actually called to let him know about Casey & his availability. He took advantage of the situation, he waits till next season, Casey is coaching else-ware...

This team & youth had progression this season, no way can I be mad or upset with that, it's the difference between perpetual tanking teams.

I know our opinions differ but I rather lose out on a draft slot or 2 & have a good coach in place. I support the tank but in no way can I be mad at BC's choice to hire Casey.

I don't dislike BC, I do not like BC as the Raptors gm though. I also am not criticizing his hiring of Casey but rather his timing/positioning of the team. To me, hiring Casey is just another example of poor timing/positioning. I have no problem with Casey as a coach, he seems very good as a motivational and defensive coach. Although he really hasn't shown much skill so far as an offensive coach, that may happen it may not.

As you mention, he took advantage of the situation that was right in front of him. He has a serious lack of long term planning. As a gm BC is a lot like a basketball player with all the skill you could ask for but a low bball iq. May end up with some solid numbers and a decent career but not likely to lead a team anywhere.

[albertajaysfan]

I don't dislike BC, I do not like BC as the Raptors gm though. I also am not criticizing his hiring of Casey but rather his timing/positioning of the team. To me, hiring Casey is just another example of poor timing/positioning. I have no problem with Casey as a coach, he seems very good as a motivational and defensive coach. Although he really hasn't shown much skill so far as an offensive coach, that may happen it may not.

As you mention, he took advantage of the situation that was right in front of him. He has a serious lack of long term planning. As a gm BC is a lot like a basketball player with all the skill you could ask for but a low bball iq. May end up with some solid numbers and a decent career but not likely to lead a team anywhere.

I wish I could find the quote however I remember reading at the beginning of the season that offence was not going to be his concern this season because of lack of training camp and practice time.

Next year will be a truer reflection on his overall ability as a coach. He will have an entire offseason and training camp to implement his plans. As well as far more practice time throughout the regular season. Hopefully he also has better offensive weapons at his disposal then this year.

[Tmath]

I don't dislike BC, I do not like BC as the Raptors gm though. I also am not criticizing his hiring of Casey but rather his timing/positioning of the team. To me, hiring Casey is just another example of poor timing/positioning. I have no problem with Casey as a coach, he seems very good as a motivational and defensive coach. Although he really hasn't shown much skill so far as an offensive coach, that may happen it may not.

As you mention, he took advantage of the situation that was right in front of him. He has a serious lack of long term planning. As a gm BC is a lot like a basketball player with all the skill you could ask for but a low bball iq. May end up with some solid numbers and a decent career but not likely to lead a team anywhere.

This doesn't even make sense.

[Vdot]

My comment was opinion based on what I would want if I were Davis, nothing I said was definitive.

The difference is OKC/Spurs are contenders. If they were a **** team I would put money Harden would want & think he deserves to start there or else-ware.



Amir is an ideal 3rd big for this team.

Question is, is it smarter to waste Davis' trade value to have him coming off the bench instead of Amir, if he's not going to surpass Bargnani as a starter?.

On a team lacking in talent I rather have that value in a position where it can potentially start. Harden is coming off the bench because they can afford him too.

I see your point, but clearly Davis is not nearly as talented as Harden, and the Raptors are not nearly as talented as OKC. But once we do become talented (with JV and this years pick, plus the continued growth of our current players + a good free agent) Then we will be able to afford having a player like Davis come off the bench. At that point, having Amir as our 3rd big while paying him close to 7 million a year will be a joke.

[B2B]

I don't dislike BC, I do not like BC as the Raptors gm though. I also am not criticizing his hiring of Casey but rather his timing/positioning of the team. To me, hiring Casey is just another example of poor timing/positioning. I have no problem with Casey as a coach, he seems very good as a motivational and defensive coach. Although he really hasn't shown much skill so far as an offensive coach, that may happen it may not.

As you mention, he took advantage of the situation that was right in front of him. He has a serious lack of long term planning. As a gm BC is a lot like a basketball player with all the skill you could ask for but a low bball iq. May end up with some solid numbers and a decent career but not likely to lead a team anywhere.

You can position yourself for opportunity but you can't plan opportunity.

It presents itself & has it's own timing. Which means no matter how well you position yourself for opportunity, it doesn't guarantee anything. Recognition is key. This is why I claim, Dumars will never duplicate the luck & timing of his championship Pistons. If it were positioning/planning alone, he would.

Hiring Casey is taking advantage of a good opportunity that presented itself.

Stashing a draft pick overseas, signing 3 vet scrubs on 1y deals, stretching injuries, signing & playing 3 d-league players heavy mins to tank, is the first step/goal to a long term plan.

What you want is BC to pass over Casey in hope of having another opportunity present itself, which better aligns with the goal of tanking. This action is not assured either way because you can't say where the team would be drafting, if they retained Triano & you can't say the opportunity to land a better coach will present itself or be a viable option for TO, if BC had passed on Casey.

Your assuming another good opportunity will present itself with better timing. It may, it may not, which is why one needs to recognize opportunity when it presents itself & take advantage of it. (Bird in the hand).

Casey IMO, was good recognition of opportunity by BC because the Raptors now have a good coach in place.

Opportunity alters the best of plans, recognition is key.

[B2B]

I see your point, but clearly Davis is not nearly as talented as Harden, and the Raptors are not nearly as talented as OKC. But once we do become talented (with JV and this years pick, plus the continued growth of our current players + a good free agent) Then we will be able to afford having a player like Davis come off the bench. At that point, having Amir as our 3rd big while paying him close to 7 million a year will be a joke.

Assuming Val & the pick will allow that luxury is putting the cart before the horse, neither asset are proven.

If you can land a starter at a position of weakness by trading Davis, then that IMO is the coarse of action. That said, I'm not suggesting a trade has to be made.

[Vdot]

Assuming Val & the pick will allow that luxury is putting the cart before the horse, neither asset are proven.

If you can land a starter at a position of weakness by trading Davis, then that IMO is the coarse of action. That said, I'm not suggesting a trade has to be made.

Yes I agree that depending on JV and our pick is putting the cart before the horse, but all we can do is hope. Play our cards right and just hope it all works out.

Although Davis' trade value is surely higher than Amir's, it's still not enough to bring a quality starter to Toronto. I recall someone mentioning we could acquire a player with a talent level equivalent to Randy Foye for Davis. That seems about accurate. Not saying Foye is a bad player, just not someone worth trading Davis for. We know more about Davis than any other team does, and we believe he can be a solid contributor for years to come, esepcially on rebounds. Other teams will see him as inconsistent, unproven talent.

[Bramaca]

Opportunity alters the best of plans, recognition is key.

I would agree with this. You are acting like this opportunity is a once in a lifetime thing though. It isn't like it was Phil Jackson available, it was for a coach who had half the experience as a head coach that Triano did and a similarily bad record. Is he a better coach then Triano? Yeah, he probably is but lets not kid ourselves there will be coach's available this offseason who are very good. BC alters his 'best laid plans' for opportunities that aren't necesarily worth doing it for, and he does it with regularity. Recognition is key, and I think BC has problems recognizing things that aren't right in front of him.

Anyhow, back to Davis or Amir. Davis certainly has more trade value while Amir will have some but not nearly as much. I really think Davis will likely be the odd man out.

[FutureGM]

I've said for a while that Amir is the best man for the 3rd big off the bench.

Ed Davis for Eric Bledsoe would make me a very happy man. Maybe throw in a early 2nd rounder in a very deep draft to sweeten the deal. I still think LA would want more for him.

[B2B]

I would agree with this. You are acting like this opportunity is a once in a lifetime thing though.

Am I?, or are you under-rating the move to a point that it appears that way to you.

It isn't like it was Phil Jackson available, it was for a coach who had half the experience as a head coach that Triano did and a similarily bad record.

What was Thibodeau's head coaching experience/record when Chicago stole him from Boston's bench?.

Casey may not be or have Phil Jackson's resume but he did come with high praise & recommendation from a championship team much like Thibodeau, where he was an important contributor, something you can't say or compare Triano with.

You have me down as over-rating this move while you compare Casey to Triano who was probably hired because he was Canadian. Keep in mind we began this conversation because Casey has this same or lesser roster run by Triano, far exceeding expectations.

Is he a better coach then Triano? Yeah, he probably is but lets not kid ourselves there will be coach's available this offseason who are very good.

If someone with the resume of Phil Jackson was available, what would be the odds of this team signing him?.

Can you prove any future option would definitively be better than already having Casey?.

BC alters his 'best laid plans' for opportunities that aren't necesarily worth doing it for, and he does it with regularity. Recognition is key, and I think BC has problems recognizing things that aren't right in front of him.

Agree to disagree, I think Casey was worth it.

Anyhow, back to Davis or Amir. Davis certainly has more trade value while Amir will have some but not nearly as much. I really think Davis will likely be the odd man out.

Agree.

[Byronicle]

What was Thibodeau's head coaching experience/record when Chicago stole him from Boston's bench?. .

wasn't Casey also an assistant coach for the Sonics, and they had a good season especially defensively?

all these coaches start off with 0 experience and 0 wins

You have me down as over-rating this move while you compare Casey to Triano who was probably hired because he was Canadian. Keep in mind we began this conversation because Casey has this same or lesser roster run by Triano, far exceeding expectations..

exactly, winning games with at least 3 d-leaguers in the lineup plus having to deal with injuries all season long (kleiza, calderon, bargnani, bayless). this team competes and it is very apparent, you do not need a stat to prove that. just watching this team shows how much heart these players have and how much they bought into Casey's system

to be honest i always found Triano's angry spurts and breaking clipboards hilarious. we all had that teacher that no one would listen to and they always get frustrated and have to try and show anger to get a point across only to come off hilarious. i think Triano was that type of teacher, and the students/players were not buying into his system

If someone with the resume of Phil Jackson was available, what would be the odds of this team signing him?.

Can you prove any future option would definitively be better than already having Casey?..

correct me if I am wrong but there was a coach available, Rick Adelman and I am pretty sure he didnt consider Raptors as a choice back in the offseason. I think good coaches are more harder to come by than players, and good coaches usually stick to championship calibre teams

[Vdot]

I've said for a while that Amir is the best man for the 3rd big off the bench.

Ed Davis for Eric Bledsoe would make me a very happy man. Maybe throw in a early 2nd rounder in a very deep draft to sweeten the deal. I still think LA would want more for him.

would be something to consider, bledsoe was tearing it up before they acquired like 5 guards last offseason. only thing is, would the clips want another PF? They have Griffin consuming major minutes, plus they have Kenyon and my boy Reggie as well. I dont see how Davis would benefit them/