Hollinger: All-Defensive Teams

[ManRamForPrez24]

I'm actually OK with Dwight being second team. He's still obviously amazing...but his impact hasn't been as huge as it traditionally has been. What Chandler has done in NYK is amazing...and the Magic defense is the worst it has been in a while. So that's fine. Dwight's a better defender, but I'm fine with him being on the second team.

I like his first team.

[MELO 15]

Where is shumpert?

[PatsSoxKnicks]

Right, but Dwight plays with Nelson, Redick, JRich, Hedo, Anderson and other crap defenders for most of his minutes; yet his defensive +/- and DRAPM are among the best in the league. Orlando has stronger defenders off the bench as well (Duhon, QRich, Clark, Baby, etc), but the team still drops off considerably... Tyson's capable of anchoring an elite defense, but his impact isn't on the level of KG in '08 or Dwight '09-Present.

I haven't dug into Tyson's impact relative to KG in 08 but it probably does fall short. However, it still seems you're trying to discredit him by using his misleading defensive +/- numbers against him. Again, you look at player pair-trios, and Tyson's spent a majority of his minutes covering for a terrible Amare or Melo. Their defensive rating with those 2 on the court at the same time falls apart when Tyson leaves.

I'm not disputing Dwight having poor defenders on his team but I'm saying you have to stop using Tyson's defensive +/- against him.

And actually, this version is supposedly the better and more accurate version (according to one of Hollinger's scouting reports that he linked to that version, haven't gone through the APBR thread yet) and Tyson has been pretty good. Not as good as Dwight but not a negative +/- like you keep trying to imply.

[jayjay16]

My all-defensive team


Rubio- Shump

T.Allen- Kobe

King James- Iggy

KG- Ibaka

Howard - Chandler



This list is not debateable.

I agree with this list

[Shammyguy3]

There's nothing wrong with Longhorn's list, except for Kobe Bryant being anywhere near an all-defensive team.

You have guys like Thabo Sefolosha, Ronnie Brewer, Luol Deng, Shawn Marion, Kyle Lowry, and Tayshaun Prince that are much better defenders than he is on the perimeter.

[Raph12]

I haven't dug into Tyson's impact relative to KG in 08 but it probably does fall short. However, it still seems you're trying to discredit him by using his misleading defensive +/- numbers against him. Again, you look at player pair-trios, and Tyson's spent a majority of his minutes covering for a terrible Amare or Melo. Their defensive rating with those 2 on the court at the same time falls apart when Tyson leaves.

I'm not disputing Dwight having poor defenders on his team but I'm saying you have to stop using Tyson's defensive +/- against him.

I'm comparing his +/- to Dwight's, they both do the same things for their teams, but when Dwight leaves the floor, there is a much bigger dropoff... I'd love to see a detailed version of the +/- for the whole season and see where exactly the impact has been made by both players. Pairing poor defenders with Tyson shouldn't hurt his numbers as much as it has, Dwight usually plays with the lesser defenders on his team (most of the starting line) for most of his minutes anyways.

Just look at the games Dwight has missed this season, the opposing team has shot over 50% in 4 of the 5 games, it's just mind-blowing how awful this Magic team is defensively without Dwight (top 10 with him this season).

And actually, this version is supposedly the better and more accurate version (according to one of Hollinger's scouting reports that he linked to that version, haven't gone through the APBR thread yet) and Tyson has been pretty good. Not as good as Dwight but not a negative +/- like you keep trying to imply.

I'm looking at those numbers and I see names like MGasol, GForce, JSmoove, TD, Amir Johnson, etc all ranking ahead of him for DRAPM. His numbers don't stand out and if I'm not giving it to Dwight, who's the best defensive big in the league, I'm not going to give it to Tyson considering. I'd give it to a wing defender like Iggy, who's the best perimeter defender and his numbers are elite across the board.

...

Tyson's a good defensive big and he can anchor an elite defense, I'm just not willing to credit him with all of NY's defensive success this season.

[Chronz]

Why do you think it is that Tyson doesn't get many blocks, steals and/or defensive rebounds? (just curious)

Same reason KG saw his blocks go down, they have prioritized positional defense above gambling. These guys are long enough to defend with their feet on the ground.

Yes but his Drtg at 98 is not significant from other players on his team (only Douglas and Novak have higher than a 102 Drtg)

I'm not getting your point.

and his DWS doesn't rank in the top 10, despite him only missing 2 games and playing over 33mpg.

Not correct

Why does his defensive +/- and DRAPM not stand out despite playing on an elite defensive squad?

Refer to Tre, I'm sure he can hook you up with the links to the articles that get in depth, I dont have them on me but basically its because he plays with bad defenders who also play out of position and his primary backup (Jeffries) is also a decent defender.

I can agree that he can quarterback an elite defense (although he isn't really on KG's level in 08), but to say he has had a greater impact than Dwight defensively isn't really accurate on Hollinger's part. I think he's just rewarding him because he has had a significant impact, while Dwight's team as a whole, has dropped off defensively (plus Dwight won 3 in a row).

Nobody is saying hes on KGs level. And maybe but that doesn't sound like Hollinger, hes never been one to follow that line of thinking, he has however trashed that line of thinking so I can't get behind that rationale. I think he focuses heavily on his metrics but who knows maybe he is ignoring them for Tyson, Ill see what other stat heads say on the matter.

[Superdude]

It has to be Chandler if you are talking about major turnaround. The Knicks were 22nd in defense last season and are 4th this season.
If not Chandler then either Iggy (philly 1st in defensive rtg) or Deng (bulls 3rd)

I would take KG over Deng

[Raph12]

I'm not getting your point.

If Tyson's the only one with big rebound and block numbers on the team, shouldn't his Drtg stand out from the pack?

Not correct

He's #8 now, he was #12 when I wrote that.

Nobody is saying hes on KGs level. And maybe but that doesn't sound like Hollinger, hes never been one to follow that line of thinking, he has however trashed that line of thinking so I can't get behind that rationale. I think he focuses heavily on his metrics but who knows maybe he is ignoring them for Tyson, Ill see what other stat heads say on the matter.

Well statistically speaking, Dwight's defensive numbers are better than Tyson's across the board and I'm sure he's more significant to his team than Tyson has been to his team. Look at the games they've played without Dwight, in 4 of the 5 games, the opposing team has shot over 50% from the floor and the only game they played well defensively was against the Pistons when Detroit was on a b2b.

If Hollinger was using metrics to say Tyson's more deserving of DPOY, I'd love to see the breakdown.

...

PS: I'm editing the post to respond to only what I need responses for.

[Chronz]

If Tyson's the only one with big rebound and block numbers on the team, shouldn't his Drtg stand out from the pack

Short answer no, long answer requires the question, why are you citing stats you dont really grasp?

He's #8 now, he was #12 when I wrote that.

lol and he was where I said he was when I posted, kind of proves how trivial your barometer is doesn't it?

Well statistically speaking, Dwight's defensive numbers are better than Tyson's across the board and I'm sure he's more significant to his team than Tyson has been to his team. Look at the games they've played without Dwight, in 4 of the 5 games, the opposing team has shot over 50% from the floor and the only game they played well defensively was against the Pistons when Detroit was on a b2b.

I dont think your qualified to speak on a full scale sweep of statistical supremacy like that given what I know about you.

If Hollinger was using metrics to say Tyson's more deserving of DPOY, I'd love to see the breakdown.

Chances are, if its Hollinger stats were taken into account. And if youve followed him over the years you know how much of a stat whore he can be.

[da ThRONe]

I still cant believe we traded Tyson for Emeka.

[Raph12]

Short answer no, long answer requires the question, why are you citing stats you dont really grasp?

You were the one who told me that it was because of Dwight's rebounding and shot blocking that his Drtg was that high compared to his teammates. I thought Drtg was "points allowed per 100 posessions", then you told me that "box score dominance" affected individual Drtg... Now I'm just trying to figure out how this is actually calculated.

I dont think your qualified to speak on a full scale sweep of statistical supremacy like that given what I know about you.

Chances are, if its Hollinger stats were taken into account. And if youve followed him over the years you know how much of a stat whore he can be.

DRAPM, DWS, Drtg, OPP, DRB%, STL%, BLK%, Defensive +/-, Synergy, etc... You name it, Dwight does it better, I'd love to see anyone break it down statistically and show Tyson's superiority.

[NJBASEBALL22]

ricky rubio?

Yes, very underrated defender. His length is key.

[Hawkeye15]

This is a terrible list. Rubio?? Really? 2 guys not even good enough to start are on here and Chandler over Dwight is just sad. I cant even look at this with any kind credibility.

Rubio is a very, very good defender. Its become even more obvious since he was hurt.

[Hawkeye15]

Rubio is 3rd among pg's in steals, 3rd in charges taken, 1st in combined steals/blocks/charges, 6th in rebounds, 4th in defensive rebounds, 7th in defensive rebound rate (among players playing 20+ mins/game)...


Please...quit watching the NBA.

Exactly. Rubio is as disruptive as it gets defensively. He gets so many deflections, turns ball handlers, challenges shots, and if the ball is in his area, he is going to knock it loose.