Matthew Stafford vs Jay Cutler

[debo]

No kidding it helps. Any QB would be helped out throwing to Calvin rather than some scrub WR. But as for the bolded, thats ridiculous...football just doesn't work that way....case in point....

Drew Stanton: 63 QB Rating with Calvin.
Daunte Culpepper: 64 QB Rating with Calvin.
Jon Kitna: 77 Career QB Rating. 79 QB Rating with Calvin.
Shaun Hill: 84 Career QB Rating. 81 QB Rating with Calvin.
Dan Orlovsky: 76 Career QB Rating. 73 Qb Rating with Calvin.

Or another elite WR...

John Skelton: 67 QB Rating with Larry Fitzgerald.
Kevin Kolb: 77 Career Qb Rating. 81 Qb Rating with Fitzgerald.
Derek Anderson: 69 Career Qb Rating. 66 Qb Rating with Fitzgerald.

Those are the QBs Calvin and Fitz have had recently not counting Stafford and Kurt Warner. Not one of those QBs was even average throwing to the two best receivers in the NFL. I guess you could argue Kolb or Kitna is but they were already average you could argue. Stafford is very good because he's very good...not because of Calvin.

I should have clarified regular starters (or at least significant starters for the case of Hill). I assumed that that was what would've been interpreted rather than career suckjobs (minus Culpepper for a few years).

[****ed in DET]

No kidding it helps. Any QB would be helped out throwing to Calvin rather than some scrub WR. But as for the bolded, thats ridiculous...football just doesn't work that way....case in point....

Drew Stanton: 63 QB Rating with Calvin.
Daunte Culpepper: 64 QB Rating with Calvin.
Jon Kitna: 77 Career QB Rating. 79 QB Rating with Calvin.
Shaun Hill: 84 Career QB Rating. 81 QB Rating with Calvin.
Dan Orlovsky: 76 Career QB Rating. 73 Qb Rating with Calvin.

Or another elite WR...

John Skelton: 67 QB Rating with Larry Fitzgerald.
Kevin Kolb: 77 Career Qb Rating. 81 Qb Rating with Fitzgerald.
Derek Anderson: 69 Career Qb Rating. 66 Qb Rating with Fitzgerald.

Those are the QBs Calvin and Fitz have had recently not counting Stafford and Kurt Warner. Not one of those QBs was even average throwing to the two best receivers in the NFL. I guess you could argue Kolb or Kitna is but they were already average you could argue. Stafford is very good because he's very good...not because of Calvin.

So the Calvin Johnson makes any QB good argument has been killed in this thread. The fact that Matt can’t throw to other guys on the team has been squashed. Bears fans made you prove Marshall + Cutler was NOT good in the past…and other requests gentleman?

[valade16]

I've done it before. Last year he had the same completion percentage throwing to other guys as he did to Calvin. His Qb rating was lower (which is to be expected obviously) but still around 90 IIRC. He threw 25 TDs to players not named Calvin Johnson....which alone would still put him top 10 in the NFL and 2 below Cutler's career high.

Also, when it did it before I also did it for Brady and Gronk...and the differences were similar. I'd imagine it's like that for every QB and their elite target.

EDIT: Here, I did it for Stafford again. Using numbers from profootballfocus.com

325-512, 63.5%, 3370 yards, 25 TD and 12 INT for a QBR of 89 when not throwing to Calvin. (97 QBR-89 QBR = 8 QBR difference from his season QBR)

EDIT: Brady to people other than Gronk:

311-490, 63.5%, 3908 yards, 22 TD and 10 INT for a QBR of 95 when not throwing to Gronk. (105 QBR-95 QBR = 10 QBR difference from his season QBR)

And very interesting......while doing this I decided to look at Cutler/Marshall in 2008 in their "great season". Cutler actually threw more picks (7) than he did TDs (6) when targeting Marshall. He had a lower QBR when throwing to Marshall than he did to the rest of the team (76 vs. 89). He had a significantly lower completion % when throwing to Marshall than he did the rest of the team (59% vs. 64%). Maybe the Cutler/Marshall connection isn't as great as everyone thinks it is? Maybe it's just not as easy as everyone thinks it is to get your best target the ball when they are covered? Who knows, just some food for thought and I found those numbers interesting.

Maybe, and I'm just spit-balling here, but maybe Calvin Johnson is way freakin' better than Brandon Marshall...

Look, Stafford has played great, no doubt about it, but having watched several of his games there were many throws where he just went "I'm going to throw this as high as possible to a double covered Calvin" and he caught it.

Props to him for doing that, but it's still a great luxury to have the most physically talented WR in the game who also happens to be one of the fastest AND tallest.

[valade16]

So the Calvin Johnson makes any QB good argument has been killed in this thread. The fact that Matt can’t throw to other guys on the team has been squashed. Bears fans made you prove Marshall + Cutler was NOT good in the past…and other requests gentleman?

Cool if it has, but I wasn't saying that. If you're not a good Quarterback having great WRs isn't gonna help all that much, because you still aren't a very good Quarterback.

What I am saying is that if you're a good Quarterback and you get an elite WR you can put up some great numbers.

A great example is Kurt Warner:

When he had less than Elite talent he was pedestrian (27 TDs to 30 INTs and an 82.1 QB Rating). When he had Elite talent he did amazing, in both St. Louis and Arizona.

Or Tom Brady:

Before he got elite offensive talent he had an 88 QB Rating and averaged 24 TDs and 13 INTs a year. Since he got elite Offensive Talent he's averaged: 107.3 QB Rating and had averages of 31 TDs and 7 INTs.

Or Donovan McNabb:

The first year he got an Elite Offensive weapon (TO) he threw a Career high in TDs (31 vs 25), Comp. % (64 to 61.5), and QB Rating (104.7 to 95.5).

So while you may have proven that Stafford would be a good Quarterback without Calvin Johnson, you still haven't shown that he would be a "throw 40+ TDs and 5,000 yards" QB.

But you know what, that's OK. Because Elite numbers like that take both a great QB and a great Receiving corps.

[FortDetroit]

Cool if it has, but I wasn't saying that. If you're not a good Quarterback having great WRs isn't gonna help all that much, because you still aren't a very good Quarterback.

What I am saying is that if you're a good Quarterback and you get an elite WR you can put up some great numbers.

A great example is Kurt Warner:

When he had less than Elite talent he was pedestrian (27 TDs to 30 INTs and an 82.1 QB Rating). When he had Elite talent he did amazing, in both St. Louis and Arizona.

Or Tom Brady:

Before he got elite offensive talent he had an 88 QB Rating and averaged 24 TDs and 13 INTs a year. Since he got elite Offensive Talent he's averaged: 107.3 QB Rating and had averages of 31 TDs and 7 INTs.

Or Donovan McNabb:

The first year he got an Elite Offensive weapon (TO) he threw a Career high in TDs (31 vs 25), Comp. % (64 to 61.5), and QB Rating (104.7 to 95.5).

So while you may have proven that Stafford would be a good Quarterback without Calvin Johnson, you still haven't shown that he would be a "throw 40+ TDs and 5,000 yards" QB.

But you know what, that's OK. Because Elite numbers like that take both a great QB and a great Receiving corps.

I don't disagree with anything you said. Football is the ultimate team game and to pass it takes both someone who can throw and someone who can catch. Drew Brees is ****ing great but even Drew Brees' numbers would go down throwing to a group like the jaguars WR core or something.

That being said, there are very few QBs in the NFL who could put up a 41-16 season IMO, even with Calvin Johnson. Many people say Cutler could do the same if given the same chance with the same receiving core. MAybe he could maybe he couldnt...but he hasn't done it yet so we will never know for sure.

I don't doubt at all that he could throw 40 TDs given the right offense, calvin, etc....but could he also limit his interceptions at the same time? that remains to be seen. to throw 40 TDs in a pass first offense you have to take a lot of risks and with risks come increased chances for interceptions. many like to point to his 7 int through 10 games last year and they have a point...he was very improved interception wise. But at the same time he was on pace for a rather pedestrian (by today's standards) 21 TD passes and career low 58% completions. Some of that is obviously his receiving core but maybe he wasn't taking the risks he had in years past leading to lower interceptions but at the same time lower TD and comp. % numbers as well.

[FortDetroit]

Maybe, and I'm just spit-balling here, but maybe Calvin Johnson is way freakin' better than Brandon Marshall...

Look, Stafford has played great, no doubt about it, but having watched several of his games there were many throws where he just went "I'm going to throw this as high as possible to a double covered Calvin" and he caught it.

Props to him for doing that, but it's still a great luxury to have the most physically talented WR in the game who also happens to be one of the fastest AND tallest.

My point wasn't to say that Brandon Marshall = Calvin Johnson and Cutler should have done just as well. That obviously is not the case. But when your statistics decline across the board when throwing to Brandon Marshall compared to the rest of the team, it really makes me question how good the cutler/marshall connection was to begin with. even if Marshall is not as good as Calvin, throwing to someone like Marshall (even if he is covered and the focus of the defense) should still be able to significantly help a QB like Cutler out...wouldn't you think?