Is T-Mac a Hall of Famer?

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A. Pippen made Jordan into a winner. 1-10 without Pippen in the playoffs. Missed the playoffs twice.

B. Jordan was 28 when he got his first ring. LeBron is 27. Bill Russell didn't have to be a ball hog like Jordan to nearly double the amount of rings. Jordan had the luxury of a watered down NBA, and should have asterisks next to his championships.

C. Smart play > Bad play every time.

If Lebron was as good a shooter as Jordan, he probably would be a little more of a ball hog. You forgot quite a few other players Jordan got along with Pippen after 87, the teams prior to that were pretty thin on talent. And Jordan didn't demand top dollar until his last two years with the Bulls (97 and 98), prior to that the team was able to distribute money to good role players so the talent wasn't so top heavy.

[AIRMAR72]

A. Pippen made Jordan into a winner. 1-10 without Pippen in the playoffs. Missed the playoffs twice.

B. Jordan was 28 when he got his first ring. LeBron is 27. Bill Russell didn't have to be a ball hog like Jordan to nearly double the amount of rings. Jordan had the luxury of a watered down NBA, and should have asterisks next to his championships.

C. Smart play > Bad play every time.

you got JOKES brah....pippen made jordan.. OK

[Swashcuff]

The trend continues. SteveNash proves time and time again to be one of the worst posters on PSD. I find it hard to believe that he isn't just trolling.

[JordansBulls]

A. Pippen made Jordan into a winner. 1-10 without Pippen in the playoffs. Missed the playoffs twice.

B. Jordan was 28 when he got his first ring. LeBron is 27. Bill Russell didn't have to be a ball hog like Jordan to nearly double the amount of rings. Jordan had the luxury of a watered down NBA, and should have asterisks next to his championships.

C. Smart play > Bad play every time.

Pippen didn't do anything to make the Bulls successfull he came in as a role player on that team. Was coming off the bench and averaged 8 ppg and 4 rpg.

In the playoffs in 1988 that year MJ averaged 36/7/5/2/1 on 53% FG
In the playoffs in 1988 that year Pippen averaged 10/5/2/1/1 on 47% FG

In the first round that season in 1988 MJ averaged

MJ vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 ppg/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG

Pippen vs Cleveland, 1988: 11 ppg/5 reb/2 ast/47% FG




In 1989 the two teams the Bulls upset MJ did this:

MJ vs. Cleveland, 1989: 40 pts/6 reb/8 ast/52% FG
Pippen vs Cleveland, 1989 15 pts/9 reb/4 ast/40% FG


MJ vs. NY, 1989: 37 pts/10 reb/9 ast/55% FG
Pippen vs NY, 1989: 15 pts/7 reb/5 ast/58% FG


MJ led the Bulls every year in PER, Win Shares, WS/PER 48 minutes and PPG and the league. Pippen in 1994 didn't even lead the Bulls in win shares in the playoffs. In fact he was 3rd.

In 1990 the Bulls without Pippen won game 4 on the road against Barkley's Sixers in a blowout despite Philly having a higher SRS rating than the Bulls that year.
In 1997 the Bulls won game 5 of the ECF with Pippen playing 7 minutes.

Point is is that Jordan could win without Pippen, but you aren't beating all time great teams like the '86 Celtics or '87 Celtics without having a decent cast around you.


Bulls would probably still have lost those series from 1985-1987 even if you added a prime Pippen to those teams.

[SteveNash]

If Lebron was as good a shooter as Jordan, he probably would be a little more of a ball hog. You forgot quite a few other players Jordan got along with Pippen after 87, the teams prior to that were pretty thin on talent. And Jordan didn't demand top dollar until his last two years with the Bulls (97 and 98), prior to that the team was able to distribute money to good role players so the talent wasn't so top heavy.

LeBron's the better 3 point shooter. Jordan better midrange. Jordan played in a weaker defensive era so overall Lebron's the better shooter.

Scottie Pippen was the perfect teammate for Jordan, doing all the little things, bringing the intangibles Jordan didn't bring while not hogging the spotlight. Jordan would be viewed as a T-Mac type player without Pippen.

And Jordan didn't take a low contract out of the goodness of his heart like LeBron did. He signed a huge contract at the time, his own shortsightedness about the future of the NBA market is what locked him into a bad NBA contract.

Pippen didn't do anything to make the Bulls successfull he came in as a role player on that team. Was coming off the bench and averaged 8 ppg and 4 rpg.

In the playoffs in 1988 that year MJ averaged 36/7/5/2/1 on 53% FG
In the playoffs in 1988 that year Pippen averaged 10/5/2/1/1 on 47% FG

In the first round that season in 1988 MJ averaged

MJ vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 ppg/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG

Pippen vs Cleveland, 1988: 11 ppg/5 reb/2 ast/47% FG




In 1989 the two teams the Bulls upset MJ did this:

MJ vs. Cleveland, 1989: 40 pts/6 reb/8 ast/52% FG
Pippen vs Cleveland, 1989 15 pts/9 reb/4 ast/40% FG


MJ vs. NY, 1989: 37 pts/10 reb/9 ast/55% FG
Pippen vs NY, 1989: 15 pts/7 reb/5 ast/58% FG

Pippen was the true hero in Game 5 against the Cavs. Getting the first start of his career, outplaying Jordan and making the key plays on both sides of the ball. Something you rattling off stats don't tell you.

The final game against NY it was Pippen finally fighting back against NY tired of watching Jordan flopping and trying to motivate the team in their next round match up against the Pistons. Unfortunately Pippen couldn't overcome Jordan's poor performance against them.

MJ led the Bulls every year in PER, Win Shares, WS/PER 48 minutes and PPG and the league. Pippen in 1994 didn't even lead the Bulls in win shares in the playoffs. In fact he was 3rd.

In 1990 the Bulls without Pippen won game 4 on the road against Barkley's Sixers in a blowout despite Philly having a higher SRS rating than the Bulls that year.
In 1997 the Bulls won game 5 of the ECF with Pippen playing 7 minutes.

Point is is that Jordan could win without Pippen, but you aren't beating all time great teams like the '86 Celtics or '87 Celtics without having a decent cast around you.


Bulls would probably still have lost those series from 1985-1987 even if you added a prime Pippen to those teams.

'94. You mean the season where the Bulls lost a player who put up 17 WS the previous season and lost 2 fewer games?

And sorry for forgetting Philadelphia. I'll remember that Jordan's illustrious career without Pippen was 2-10 in the playoffs.

Prime Pippen without Jordan against the 86/87 Celtics would have faired a lot better no quesiton.

[JordansBulls]

Pippen was the true hero in Game 5 against the Cavs. Getting the first start of his career, outplaying Jordan and making the key plays on both sides of the ball. Something you rattling off stats don't tell you.

The final game against NY it was Pippen finally fighting back against NY tired of watching Jordan flopping and trying to motivate the team in their next round match up against the Pistons. Unfortunately Pippen couldn't overcome Jordan's poor performance against them.

MJ 39 pts and Pippen 24 pts.

And like I said

MJ vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 ppg/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG

Pippen vs Cleveland, 1988: 11 ppg/5 reb/2 ast/47% FG

And yeah Pippen helped soo much against NY that he got ejected in the game and then later complains against Detroit about a migraine.

'94. You mean the season where the Bulls lost a player who put up 17 WS the previous season and lost 2 fewer games?

And sorry for forgetting Philadelphia. I'll remember that Jordan's illustrious career without Pippen was 2-10 in the playoffs.

Prime Pippen without Jordan against the 86/87 Celtics would have faired a lot better no quesiton.

And didn't even lead the team in Win Shares in the playoffs. And sat out the final play when Kukoc hit the shot that turned the series around including the suspension to Derek Harper.
And no Prime Pippen on the Bulls doesn't do anything to get a game against any of those teams.


Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks

Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link

“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”

“I went to a small school, so I had to be a jack of all trades and master a few,” said Pippen. “Defense was one thing I was really able to work at and get better.

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added. “I had four other guys on my team, but I had schemes that I would throw out there depending on what he did. I’d say, ‘If I make Michael do this, then you go trap him.’ There were things I tried to do on defense to trigger him into a
mistake. He was a great player, and if you couldn’t try it on him in practice, there was nowhere else to try it.”

Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...sejordan090909

“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html

Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.


http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html

Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

[SteveNash]

MJ 39 pts and Pippen 24 pts.

And like I said

MJ vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 ppg/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG

Pippen vs Cleveland, 1988: 11 ppg/5 reb/2 ast/47% FG

And yeah Pippen helped soo much against NY that he got ejected in the game and then later complains against Detroit about a migraine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M

Hero.

And I know it can sound pathetic, but as someone who has suffered with migraines, they can be very debilitating.

And didn't even lead the team in Win Shares in the playoffs. And sat out the final play when Kukoc hit the shot that turned the series around including the suspension to Derek Harper.
And no Prime Pippen on the Bulls doesn't do anything to get a game against any of those teams.

I already proved WS are a joke, stop using them. And are you implying Jordan was always a team first guy?

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks





Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link







Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...sejordan090909

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html

Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.

Taking quotes from players are unreliable, though I don't know what point you're trying to prove since I never said Jordan never helped Pippen, just that Pippen helped Jordan become a winner.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html

And as we saw with Jordan on the Wizards, he was a bum without Pippen.

[joe1nas]

+1 to add to this...(LA KOBE FANS DO NOT GET MAD) Tmac was the premier Guard over Kobe for YEARS...YEARS..Not a season...YEARS...It was 2 diffrent situations. Tmac was trying to build a team around him...Kobe had a team .actually wasnt best player on his team,and had a coach. Injuries hurt Tmac. The only nod for Kobe is he made it clear he was a winner,but if it was IF I HAD THE CHANCE TO CLONE THEIR SKILLS/SIZE AND BECOME ONE OF THEM...NO DOUBT TMAC...6'9 SG??!?!? WITH HANDLES, AND JUMPER???!?!?!? AND CAN PUT YOU ON A POSTER?! TMAC...AND I LOVE KOBE.

T Mac was never better then kobe he was close though but never better

[LongWayFromHome]

There are 8 retired players above him on the HOF probability list that AREN'T in the Hall

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ob_career.html

mcgrady is #99

[joe1nas]

I see a lot of similarities with these two teams. Who'do yall think is better

[alexander_37]

That list has Joe Johnson wayyyy to hight ( above Manu???) = fail.

[alexander_37]

T Mac was never better then kobe he was close though but never better

Lol yes he was for 2-3 seasons.

[Bears99]

Tmac was ridiculously good in his prime... dude had such a pure offensive game. He also had one of the best single seasons in NBA history in 02/03 and he should have won MVP that year instead of Duncan. He is a 2x NBA scoring champ, 7x All-Star, and 7x All-NBA. He could have done so much more if it wasn't for injuries - It would be a shame if he didn't make the HOF.

[alexander_37]

And as we saw with Jordan on the Wizards, he was a bum without Pippen.

.... Seriously why is everyone not tearing this guy apart for saying this.....