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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheeznWingz View Post
    This is a system other team have tried also. You don't see any of their goaltenders mentioned in the same breathe as Marty. Patrick played on teams that could outscore the opposition if he had bad night, not the same story for Marty.
    If Pronger and Timonen in Philly can make Michael Leighton and Brian Boucher look like playoff preformers and TB's trap can make Dwayne Rolosson look like he was 20 again last year then dont you think one of the best defensive pairings in Stevens/Neidermeyer combined with a trapping system helped Brodeur a little with his numbers and those Stanley Cup rings?

    I am not saying Brodeur was not among the best ever and could possibly be the best ever but Wayne Gretzky was on a whole other level from anyone else that ever played this game. The man has many offensive records that may never come close to being touched again (See the 50 goals in 39 games, 92 goals in a season, 215 points in a season). The man won the Hart trophy 8 consecutive years. Thats pretty close to a decade that he was voted MVP consistently.

  2. #47
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    I would say Brodeur is the goalie version of Brodeur.

    Apples and Oranges with Gretzky.

    That said I do not believe he is the best Goalie to ever strap on pads.

    I would have to give that to Plante, Roy, Hextal.

    Going at it for 400 years and being great therefor dominating stats based upon being pretty good and doing it so long ... is not a comparison.

    But thats just my opinion.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunbeltHab View Post
    I would say Brodeur is the goalie version of Brodeur.

    Apples and Oranges with Gretzky.

    That said I do not believe he is the best Goalie to ever strap on pads.

    I would have to give that to Plante, Roy, Hextal.

    Going at it for 400 years and being great therefor dominating stats based upon being pretty good and doing it so long ... is not a comparison.

    But thats just my opinion.
    I've never watched Plante but Brodeur is light years ahead of Hextal. To me, the best two goalies I've watched are Roy and Brodeur, and I give a slight edge to Roy but it's slight, they are pretty well even. Also, nobody is the equivalent to Gretzky, he's so far ahead in points and stats to the next guy, Messier, it's not even funny. His 900 goals are almost unnecessary to be the leader.

  4. #49
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    Yeah I guess Hextall was not an all time great. I just figure if Brodeur is up for all time great, the guy he learned most of what he does from should be up there. Brodeur always has said he loved Hextall's style and has tried to mymic it throughout his career.

    I guess I just respect him for being an inovative guy who did some amazing things that the numbers do not always show.

    Plante was the man though, he made the Goalie position what it is today, and essentually changed the game forever.

    Much like Gretzky.

    I guess if I were to compare anyone to Gretzky it would have to be another player who changed the game permenantly in some way.

    Brodeur ... he is a good goalie who has had phenominal durability, great person, and will always be one of the better goalies to play ... but just not the best ever.
    Last edited by SunbeltHab; 03-14-2012 at 02:32 PM. Reason: cause I cant maintain a coherent thought

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunbeltHab View Post
    Yeah I guess Hextall was not an all time great. I just figure if Brodeur is up for all time great, the guy he learned most of what he does from should be up there. Brodeur always has said he loved Hextall's style and has tried to mymic it throughout his career.

    I guess I just respect him for being an inovative guy who did some amazing things that the numbers do not always show.

    Plante was the man though, he made the Goalie position what it is today, and essentually changed the game forever.

    Much like Gretzky.

    I guess if I were to compare anyone to Gretzky it would have to be another player who changed the game permenantly in some way.

    Brodeur ... he is a good goalie who has had phenominal durability, great person, and will always be one of the better goalies to play ... but just not the best ever.
    So by that logic Butch Harmon, Hank Haney and Earl Woods should all be "up there" in terms of all time great professional golfers...? Your logic is dumb.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by pf289 View Post
    So by that logic Butch Harmon, Hank Haney and Earl Woods should all be "up there" in terms of all time great professional golfers...? Your logic is dumb.
    Did you have to go with a golf analogy?
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BranWingss View Post
    I'm sorry, but are you going to tell me how good Rafalski is? I just watched him for four years. He's above average defensively, not 'great' by any means. He's elite offensively, though.

    Oh, Yan Danis and his 5 games were so much better than Martin Brodeur's 77 games in 2009/2010. Oh please. Martin Brodeur was better.
    Oh well if thats the case you are not going to tell me how good Marty or Rafalski is. I live in NJ and used to be able to walk to continental airlines arena. I have watched martys entire career from just a few blocks away. I also probably have watched 90% of his career games. I also watched 7 yrs of rafalski to your 4. I am not saying Rafalski is on Stevens or Niedermayers level but he is a pretty damn good dman, you cant say he didnt help. To say the last few yrs of Martys stats are on him is just laughable. You dont watch or go to nearly as many Devils games as i do.

    you also pick Yan Danis lol. How about Hedbergs 34 this year? Clemmensons 40 2 yrs ago? Even Kevin Weekes had similar stats that marty that year. marty has not been a difference maker the last few years.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodandNails View Post
    Did you have to go with a golf analogy?
    die

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by commonsense12 View Post
    Oh well if thats the case you are not going to tell me how good Marty or Rafalski is. I live in NJ and used to be able to walk to continental airlines arena. I have watched martys entire career from just a few blocks away. I also probably have watched 90% of his career games. I also watched 7 yrs of rafalski to your 4. I am not saying Rafalski is on Stevens or Niedermayers level but he is a pretty damn good dman, you cant say he didnt help. To say the last few yrs of Martys stats are on him is just laughable. You dont watch or go to nearly as many Devils games as i do.

    you also pick Yan Danis lol. How about Hedbergs 34 this year? Clemmensons 40 2 yrs ago? Even Kevin Weekes had similar stats that marty that year. marty has not been a difference maker the last few years.
    Johan Hedberg wasn't on that team, with Dannis and Brodeur. You said, "do realize that Martys backups have put up better save % and Gaa numbers in his last 4 yrs". So, you counted that season.

    Marty performed on an elite level a year after those guys left. Injuries slowed him down, and not the fact that the system and these guys were gone. You're acting like Kevin Weekes, Scott Clemmenson, and Johan Hedberg are better than Martin Brodeur. Brodeur's out of his prime, but that's because of injuries. A prime Martin Brodeur kills these guys, and it really doesn't matter which team he plays on.

    Oh yeah, you watched 90% of Brian Rafalski's career? I call BS. I can't believe you mentioned him as being close to an elite defensive defenseman. He was pretty good, but not elite, like you seem to think. He isn't a difference maker. Hell, Stuart, Liljia, Lidstrom, and Kronwall were the four on our PK because they were better there.

    Brian Rafalski was still pretty much in his prime when he retired, which honestly, is a crazy thing. When he first arrived, he was absolutely in his prime. Go ask any Wings fan in our forum, and they will agree with me. "Good, steady" defensive defenseman, but he wasn't even a top three defensive defenseman for us. I'm sure in his last year for New Jersey, he wasn't the best either.

    90%? ... Detroit, New Jersey, and even division rivals can tell you the same thing about Brian Rafalski's defensive game. NOT ELITE, OR THE LEVEL RIGHT BEHIND. STEADY, BETTER THAN AVERAGE, GOOD.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BranWingss View Post
    Johan Hedberg wasn't on that team, with Dannis and Brodeur. You said, "do realize that Martys backups have put up better save % and Gaa numbers in his last 4 yrs". So, you counted that season.

    Marty performed on an elite level a year after those guys left. Injuries slowed him down, and not the fact that the system and these guys were gone. You're acting like Kevin Weekes, Scott Clemmenson, and Johan Hedberg are better than Martin Brodeur. Brodeur's out of his prime, but that's because of injuries. A prime Martin Brodeur kills these guys, and it really doesn't matter which team he plays on.

    Oh yeah, you watched 90% of Brian Rafalski's career? I call BS. I can't believe you mentioned him as being close to an elite defensive defenseman. He was pretty good, but not elite, like you seem to think. He isn't a difference maker. Hell, Stuart, Liljia, Lidstrom, and Kronwall were the four on our PK because they were better there.

    Brian Rafalski was still pretty much in his prime when he retired, which honestly, is a crazy thing. When he first arrived, he was absolutely in his prime. Go ask any Wings fan in our forum, and they will agree with me. "Good, steady" defensive defenseman, but he wasn't even a top three defensive defenseman for us. I'm sure in his last year for New Jersey, he wasn't the best either.

    90%? ... Detroit, New Jersey, and even division rivals can tell you the same thing about Brian Rafalski's defensive game. NOT ELITE, OR THE LEVEL RIGHT BEHIND. STEADY, BETTER THAN AVERAGE, GOOD.
    LOl now you are playing semantics to prove a point. The last 4 yrs including this year yes. The point was out of the 4 yrs and over a 100 games combined they have outplayed Marty. Thats a pretty big sample size. Even in those 12 games or whatever Danis did he still performed at just as a high level as Marty and we all know Danis is pretty terrible. Whats funny is you are still ignoring Clemmensons year and Hedbergs 2 yrs. Bottom line is yes his backups have put up better save and GAA. How can you argue that?

    Your love for Marty is kind of funny. Yes he was a great Goalie but you cant sit there and say his team didnt matter. You can call BS all you want on how many games i watch because i can say you dont even watch hockey or know what you are talking about. See how that works? I guarantee i watched more of Rafalski in Jersey then you watched of him in detriot. I was also being nice in saying 90% of his games its probably more then that. Shoot i remember going to Brendan byrne arwena to watch the devils play. I remember the good old mickey mouse days of the devils. Ahh memories

    BTW I can show you where he stayed in Hackensack after his wife kicked him out for sleeping with her brothers wife if you like lol.

    Now lets talk about putting words in my writing. Where did i say Rafalski is on Stevens or Niedermayers level? How about saying he is Elite? yeah just dont see it. Learn to read, what i said was he is a pretty damn good dman. marty has played on a defensive hockey team his whole career and thats just including dmen, he has had some great defensive forwards. Hasek and Roy proved their talents somewhere else and won in different systems. Its not crazy to wonder what Martys numbers would look like in a different system.

  11. #56
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    guys get back on topic. This is about Brodeur's legacy, not whether he still has it...

    Its also not about how the trap made him better, its about whether his records are safe or not. Lets talk about that please.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by McJoe View Post
    guys get back on topic. This is about Brodeur's legacy, not whether he still has it...

    Its also not about how the trap made him better, its about whether his records are safe or not. Lets talk about that please.
    Agreed. It's also a comparison between #99's records and Brodeur's.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Agreed. It's also a comparison between #99's records and Brodeur's.
    Eh.

    Martin Brodeur's win record is probably the most likely shattered of either's big time records. Shootout victories really help out. A team needs to remain similar to Detroit, though. Playoffs every single year. This tender' also needs to come in at a young age, and be able to

    A) avoid injuries
    B) Perform well for a long-time

    Not seeing it's easy at all, and a lot is based on luck, but it's doable. Shutouts are much harder to come by, and well, Wayne's records are pretty much there for quite some time.

    That's basically the answer right there.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by BranWingss View Post
    Eh.

    Martin Brodeur's win record is probably the most likely shattered of either's big time records. Shootout victories really help out. A team needs to remain similar to Detroit, though. Playoffs every single year. This tender' also needs to come in at a young age, and be able to

    A) avoid injuries
    B) Perform well for a long-time

    Not seeing it's easy at all, and a lot is based on luck, but it's doable. Shutouts are much harder to come by, and well, Wayne's records are pretty much there for quite some time.

    That's basically the answer right there.
    I'm just summing up the OPs original point. Doesn't mean I believe it holds any water.

  15. #60
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    Brodeur has my respect as a fan more then any other player. Maybe not Stevie Y so second most

    As a player he stayed with his team through his whole career when he could of left in his prime to make way more money then he did in NJ

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