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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    If that one play wins the game and the quarterback does that consistently why can't he be considered a good/great QB? I don't understand what your fascination with downplaying excellent performance in the 4th.

    I mean, you keep saying "good QBs don't need to win in the 4th", somebody should've told that to Montana (the catch, drive to win SB), Monday night vs Elway, and Brady (3 GW FG drives, last minute TD drive vs Giants in 07).

    BY my recolleciton, Joe Montana was called "Joe Cool" and "Comeback Kid" for his ability to come from behind and win a game in the 4th.

    Dan Marino has the most 4th quarter comebacks ever. Brady has never won a Superbowl without a game winning FG drive.

    Should we marginalize all of them because of "ZOMG one drive "?
    You ignored my post. Here, I'll put it up again.

    First of all, you want to use the argument that he is on a mediocre team, and at the same time that he is a 2 time superbowl champ.

    Well NEWSFLASH, during BOTH playoff runs, his defense played lights out, specifically his defensive line. You could argue that the Giants d-line is the reason for BOTH of their superbowls.So that argument gets thrown right out of the water.

    Secondly, he didn't outplay tom brady. Eli went up against one of the worst defenses in the league, while Brady went up against one of the best, and don't try to say they weren't one of the best, because they are, they finally got healthy in the post season and showed how amazing they are.

    Yet despite this, they still put up comparable numbers, and even furthermore than that, Brady got screwed by his wide recievers dropping AT LEAST 4 catches in the last two drives that anyone with a mind would point to being the first thing that caused them the loss.

    Lastly, only a complete fool would ever even consider taking Eli over Peyton.

    Peyton has played lights out his entire career, among the best to ever play. Meanwhile, eli has a good season here and there, and awful seasons as well. He has one good season, and people want to try to consider him better than Peyton?

    And I mean, you can't even use the argument that Eli is on a worse team. Look at what happened to the Colts this year without Peyton. He showed this year that he carries that offense, Wayne is a scrub without him, he MADE wayne what he is.

    But what I find hilarious more than anything, is that people want to judge QBs by their superbowl wins, which is ridiculous. QBs don't play all 22 positions, you could be the best ever and still not win, you can't control the entire game.

    Let me lay out a scenario for you. Eli played the EXACT same game he played today, and the patriots get the ball back like the did with 1 minute to go. The drive plays out the same, except on the last hail mary pass, gronk manages to make the diving catch for the football and the Pats win.

    Right now, today, no one would be arguing about how good eli is, no one would be saying he's as good or better than Peyton, no one would be saying he should be going to the HoF, but why? Why the change? His numbers, play, his everthing would be the exact same. He wouldn't be ANY different as a player, they would have lost because of his defense in that scenario, he put them in a position to win, and his defense lost it, yet Brady is the one with the glory, and Eli isn't, because of one catch?

    Do you not realize the stupidity in that?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by basch152 View Post
    You ignored my post. Here, I'll put it up again.

    First of all, you want to use the argument that he is on a mediocre team, and at the same time that he is a 2 time superbowl champ.

    Well NEWSFLASH, during BOTH playoff runs, his defense played lights out, specifically his defensive line. You could argue that the Giants d-line is the reason for BOTH of their superbowls.So that argument gets thrown right out of the water.

    Secondly, he didn't outplay tom brady. Eli went up against one of the worst defenses in the league, while Brady went up against one of the best, and don't try to say they weren't one of the best, because they are, they finally got healthy in the post season and showed how amazing they are.

    Yet despite this, they still put up comparable numbers, and even furthermore than that, Brady got screwed by his wide recievers dropping AT LEAST 4 catches in the last two drives that anyone with a mind would point to being the first thing that caused them the loss.

    Lastly, only a complete fool would ever even consider taking Eli over Peyton.

    Peyton has played lights out his entire career, among the best to ever play. Meanwhile, eli has a good season here and there, and awful seasons as well. He has one good season, and people want to try to consider him better than Peyton?

    And I mean, you can't even use the argument that Eli is on a worse team. Look at what happened to the Colts this year without Peyton. He showed this year that he carries that offense, Wayne is a scrub without him, he MADE wayne what he is.

    But what I find hilarious more than anything, is that people want to judge QBs by their superbowl wins, which is ridiculous. QBs don't play all 22 positions, you could be the best ever and still not win, you can't control the entire game.

    Let me lay out a scenario for you. Eli played the EXACT same game he played today, and the patriots get the ball back like the did with 1 minute to go. The drive plays out the same, except on the last hail mary pass, gronk manages to make the diving catch for the football and the Pats win.

    Right now, today, no one would be arguing about how good eli is, no one would be saying he's as good or better than Peyton, no one would be saying he should be going to the HoF, but why? Why the change? His numbers, play, his everthing would be the exact same. He wouldn't be ANY different as a player, they would have lost because of his defense in that scenario, he put them in a position to win, and his defense lost it, yet Brady is the one with the glory, and Eli isn't, because of one catch?

    Do you not realize the stupidity in that?
    If ever I needed proof you guys are just flat out ignoring what I'm saying to continue your hate towards Eli, this is it. I actually responded to your post, it is below:

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I'm going to cutoff that last half of your post because your arguing something that I'm not in disagreement with. I would take Peyton Manning over Eli Manning 100 times out of 100. Anybody would and should.

    That being said, NEWSFLASH: During both playoff Runs Eli played "lights out". He had over a 100+ rating in 5 of the 8 games, he threw 15 TDs and 2 INTs, completed 63.1% of his passes, a 96.6 QB rating and had 5 Game winning drives. That is lights out play. But yes, your right, he had nothing to do with those Superbowls, it was all the defense

    To put it in perspective his worst QB rating for those games was a 72, Brady's was a 57. Brady also had a 66. And a 70... Eli actually played more consistent in his Superbowl runs than Brady has. Now does that make him better? NO. A) because it's a much smaller sample size than Brady and B) because Brady has playoff success and regular season dominance, but it does show just how good Eli is playing.

    A further illustration of that is showing you that during Eli's 2 Superbowl runs the Giants offense averaged 23.3 PPG and their D surrendered 15.1 PPG. During Tom Brady's Superbowl runs the Pats offense scored 24.6 PPG and their defense surrendered 17 PPG. So Eli's D has had to carry him so much more than Brady's because they let up 1.9 PPG less and the Giants score 1.3 PPG less

    As to the last part, yes, Brady went up against a better defense, however he threw a costly INT (the only TO of the game, don't tell me that didn't greatly affect the outcome) and although his WRs did drop passes, specifically on Welker's drop, Brady threw it slightly behind him.

    Is that a catch Welker should've made? Yes. Does that take away from the fact that Brady was slightly off on the throw? No. Because both are true. Now contrast that to the throw that Eli threw to Manningham. That was absolutely perfect placement on that football. It was still a great catch, but Eli made it as easy as that catch can possibly be.

    In conclusion, stop acting like Eli is trent freaking Dilfer and give the guy some credit

  3. #63
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    This is a funny thread. 2011 was the only year Eli performed better then Peyton. I just assumed this was a bait thread to make nyg fans make themselves look stupid with their Eli=GOAT bs.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by OREcoast49er View Post
    This is a funny thread. 2011 was the only year Eli performed better then Peyton. I just assumed this was a bait thread to make nyg fans make themselves look stupid with their Eli=GOAT bs.
    and yet peyton still had a better shot at the MVP than eli did.......................
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  5. #65
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    ^^^LOL, true.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYkillaPriest View Post
    What do you consider a team that was 32nd in rushing offense..defensively 25..27..29..19 in PTS..YDS..Pass YDS..Rush YDS...yea this is the team that Eli played with and was "clutch" with..I didn't try n boost Eli up like he is the best thing at every facet of the game so please don't argue against me and try and take away the one thing he is the best at..Yes due to personnel and schemes this was a mediocre team for the majority of the season(9-7)..the coaches found the right combination of players and schemes which catapulted us to the Super Bowl but Eli has been clutch all season so your argument is flawed and wrong
    I want to ask this, I asked in another thread and of course it went ignored. Eli supporters will constantly bring up his post season stats as a reason for him being better then he is, despite his regular season are usually less then stellar. So, during the regular season Tue giants defense want all that good. We can all agree on that. But, during the playoffs, they stepped it up, or were clutch as people would call it. They allowed 14 points a game to teams that scored 35,32,25 and 23 a game in the regular season. Those teams were ranked 1,3,7 and 11 in points. They shut down a qb who had one of the greatest seasons ever. A team that commuted only 14 turnovers in 16 games, the giants d forced 4 in one game. They held the 2nd highest scoring team of all time to 20 points. Then they held the 7th ranked team in points to 0 points. Then in the super bowl they shut down one of the greatest qbs of all time. So if Eli is good because of his post season regardless of the regualr season, then please quit talking about how bad the defense was during the regualr season.

    Even the run game got better. During the regular season the averaged 3.5 ypc. During the playoffs, 4.1. They also had 114 ypg.

    Oh and Mr Elite managed a whole 19 points against one of the worst passing defenses of all time. Sounds elite to me.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    So the fact that he has a 96.1 QB Rating in Superbowls including 2 Game Winning Drives means nothing to you?

    When will you finally understand, it's not that he has 2 rings, it's that he played really well during the games and made 2 game winning drives. He literally outplayed Tom Brady in both Superbowls, that is quite an accomplishment.
    But shouldn't we look at those drives in context? He was saved by great catches by his wrs in each of them. He didn't even play well on the first drive, two great catches helped the drive. The first one by roomer which Eli underthrew him and he had to dive back for. Put them at 4th and 2, they got the first down running. Then as he did most the drive, he threw the ball high to Tyree. He overthrew received at least 4 times that I saw, one was almost an int. So if people want to talk context, we can talk context.

    I say the same things about Brady's gwd also. Going 26 yards and letting your kicker kick a fg is not a drive IMO.

  8. #68
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    If both healthy then obviously Peyton and its not remotely close lol .. at this point I may say Eli just because nobody knows if Peyton will ever even play again

  9. #69
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    This is a dumb question. Peyton is a huge question mark because of his health, and Eli is healthy and in his prime. There's no need to question who has been the greater quarterback.

    There is only one answer to this. If Peyton is Peyton, you take Peyton. If he's not, you will do just fine with Eli, might even win a couple rings
    Last edited by Mr Haha; 02-18-2012 at 01:41 PM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYkillaPriest View Post
    Right now for me I would take Eli over any QB..I'm convinced that we still haven't seen the best of Eli and believe the regular season stats are about to pile up for him and some regular season hardware to go along with that..We all know Eli is clutch and personally I could care less about what you do in the first 3 quarters if you are able to lead drives to win in the 4th..means even more when you do it on the biggest stage in football

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_Monster View Post
    Great response. So thoughtful.

  12. #72
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    Its hard to respond to ignorance like that.

  13. #73
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    The Eli discussions come down to this:

    http://malcolmpollack.com/images/steinberg.jpg

    New Yorkers view the world in this way. They only see New York, and they see it as bigger and better than everything else. The media panders to this, and implicitly tells them that this is true.

    They did it all football season with Eli Manning and the "elite" conversations, and now they are doing it in basketball with "Linsanity", even though LeBron is having possibly the greatest season we've ever seen by an NBA player.

    The fact is it will always be this way, and New Yorkers will always be impossible to talk to about Eli.

    I'm out.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Haha View Post
    Great response. So thoughtful.
    generally no repsosne is needed to a statement that stupid
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wade>Kobe View Post
    This type of thinking is incredibly flawed. It takes for granted that one's team will play well enough around them to keep them in a position to be able to win it in the fourth.

    Eli Manning on a mediocre team = 0 4QC, and no "clutch".

    But we continue to ignore this in American sports because it is more fun.
    Actually Eli Manning had almost all of his 4QC and clutch moments this year when his team was playing at a mediocre level.

    And if you are asking me who I'd take right now...I'm clearly taking Eli. He is younger and doesn't have injury concerns. This is a no brainer.
    DUDA


    Quote Originally Posted by VendettaRed07 View Post
    noah is gonna be a beast man.

    with him and harvey, its like were gonna have Goku and Vegetta in the same rotation

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