After the two late SB wins all was forgiven, and the reputation repaired. I can't be held accountable for telling the truth.
Elway in the SB:
v NYG; Loss; QBR: 83.6
v WSH; Loss; QBR: 36.8 (3 Int's)
v SF9; Loss; QBR: 19.4 (2 Int's 10 for 26) one of the worst games ever in the SB - only Morton v DAL was worse.
v GBY; Win; QBR: 51.9 (#4 rushing offense, #5 overall defense) 12 for 22 for 123 yards and a pick - wow..
v ATL; Win; QBR: 99.2 (#2 rushing offense, #11 overall defense)
Last edited by bagwell368; 03-27-2012 at 07:21 PM.
Everything I've ever read (including quotes from the 80's) was that John Elway was one of the best Quarterbacks of the time...
Also I didn't give 15 years as a range, did I? They were quite patient out there from the draft through the beating he/Broncos took vs the Redskins in '87. From there through '92 was probably the worst of it (and it contains most of his bad years).
Year - Rate+ (Rate+ means QBR vs league average of that year)
1988 - 096
1989 - 098
1990 - 103
1991 - 099
1992 - 086
So, for a FULL 1/3 of his career (contigious years in the heart of his physical peak) he wasn't even average. His rookie year he was a 075, and in '85 he was a 094. So 6/15's of his career he was below average. 2/15's of it he was just over average. Ultra elite QB's pretty much start showing up at 114 - he got over that 3 times in his career. Maybe I have him too high after all.... Oh? Listen up... I can hear it... "but he was a great runner". Yeah, he could run real well, but he also fumbled the ball a TON. He took a lot of sacks too.
He started to become a respected gray beard around '93, and fans started wanting him to get more help, which he got. His fame rests IMO on being the golden armed golden boy (nay - HERO to his fans), of lasting a long time, and finally getting the prize. Nice story, but its got a lot of subjective elements. It ignores his crappy - yes crappy mid career years. It ignores his big ego in thinking he could fit balls in he shouldn't have thrown - look at those Int numbers). He's a HOF. But he's maybe 4th or 5th in PSD over the years when people are asked to name the "GOAT". Piffle, he's not even the goat of his own era (see below).
I haven't redone my top 20 QB list lately but the past few times he's been coming out in the #12-13 range. Hardly an insult when I also include guys that played from the late 30's onward. If you want to talk post merger he's top 10 now, but there are a few guys that might be fixing to pass him in a few years.
He played well in one of the SB's he lost, he played well in one of the ones he won. He sucked in the other 3. His overall QB Rating of 79.7 in the playoffs, his career regular season Rate of 105+ (uck). Marino has a 77.1 QBR in the playoffs (with worse teams then Elway had) - but his 113+ Rate in the regular season is why Marino > Elway. Montana has both of them lapped. So in his own time he's #3, how can he be the GOAT? Elway was only in the top 10 in QBR 5 times (3, 4, 4, 7, 5) - Marino 12 times including 3 1st place finishes. Montana 13 times with two 1st place finishes. Please don't wave the SB wins at Marino. His team was fundamentally on average far weaker then Elways. Plus lest we not forget, the Broncos CHEATED in both the years they won. They were caught and punished. Elway was in on it - since he was taking money under the table as part of his pay.
Last edited by bagwell368; 03-28-2012 at 10:38 AM.
Second, I wasn't trying to start anything, honestly, you'd know far better than me because I didn't live it so everything I hear has been secondhand.
I've always ranked Elway in my Top 10 best ever (I only count SB Era because it's so hard to include guys like Graham or Halas), but I've never really ever thought of him as the GOAT.
You hit the nail on the head re a lot of folks. There is the laundry and there is the passed down stories. A lot of folks will argue that sort of thing about guys they never saw - except for highlights. There is no way I know more about the Broncos on a daily basis then these posters, in particular since Shanihan left. But back in the days of Steve Tensi forward until these fans came on line - yeah, I know the Broncos pretty well.
Originally Posted by Wade>Kobe:21050816
lolPhillies' top 10 p4p- Mayweather/Ward/Marquez/Bradley/Martinez/Froch/Wlad/Pacquiao/Rigondeaux/Alvarez
Boxing fan? Come discuss Boxing!
1983 - 9
1984 - 2
1987 - 7
1989 - 1
1991 - 3
1997 - 7
1997 - 6
1998 - 8
Elway had 12 rushers over 800 yards (7 over 1000)
Marino Defenses (pts allowed) top 10 rankings by year:
1983 - 1
1984 - 7
1990 - 4
1995 - 10
1998 - 1
Marino had 9 rushers over 800 yards (1 over 1000)
So, Marino had less help from his defense and less help from his running game
Marino was a better passer, and took very few sacks. He was well above average at everything but running the ball - and superb in some areas.
Elway was worse in every area compared to Marino, only better at running.
I'm sure if we factor the weather in, that Elway would creep up a bit, but in no way is he a better QB then Marino (outside of the legs).
Me and my Boy.
Thank you PSD for your support and prayers.
I'm sorry, but he had some pretty fair backs, you might have forgotten some of them. He also had a period of pretty good WR's. In fact I'd say he had at least 5 years in his first 10 years in Denver with better offensive skill positions then the Pats had in 2001-2006. I agree on the offensive line, it wasn't that good.Elway had a garbage O line and crap WRs and just as bad RB untill TD.
Marino took far less sacks per ATT then almost any QB, certainly much less then Elway. Look it up. Elway was not wise about throwing the ball away trusting to his arm to pull him and the team out of danger, and that failed quite a bit.I stated they had a couple ok guys on D. Denver's D was never feared and you know it. Yes a play maker here a ok guy there but nothing close to a whole unit. Marino did take sacks but he had a great O line and a quick release. Elway had a stronger arm but no time ever. He was for most of his career the most sacked QB in NFL history and not because he held on to the ball to long, but because he would say hike just as the D line was hitting him.
Last edited by bagwell368; 04-01-2012 at 09:32 PM.