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Thread: Tom Brady

  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosox3431 View Post
    So basically what you saying is because elway was great for 3-4 years we can over look the 12 or so not so great years?
    No, not really...but it should be recognized that his peak years were late in his career.
    DUDA


    Quote Originally Posted by VendettaRed07 View Post
    noah is gonna be a beast man.

    with him and harvey, its like were gonna have Goku and Vegetta in the same rotation

  2. #1022
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Elway is clearly out of the top 10 all time. Just look at his numbers in his own time, he hardly led the league in anything ever, or was even in the top 10 that much. Too many picks. Also perhaps the most booed mid career QB with any claim to the top 20 I can name. No.
    Booed? Look I am one who thinks Elway is a bit overrated but I still believe he took 3 of the worse teams ever to the SB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdaddyburch View Post
    Booed? Look I am one who thinks Elway is a bit overrated but I still believe he took 3 of the worse teams ever to the SB.
    You mean the teams that one had the 1st ranked defense and the 7th ranked defense? Ill give you 86. That wasn't a great team. I wouldn't say 87 and 89 were necessarily great teams, but their defenses were pretty damn good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdaddyburch View Post
    Booed? Look I am one who thinks Elway is a bit overrated but I still believe he took 3 of the worse teams ever to the SB.
    Yes booed. He was hated mid career as people thought the "golden boy" was going to turn out to be the next Craig Morton. I was a witness to it. The papers and fans hated him.

    After the two late SB wins all was forgiven, and the reputation repaired. I can't be held accountable for telling the truth.

    Elway in the SB:

    v NYG; Loss; QBR: 83.6
    v WSH; Loss; QBR: 36.8 (3 Int's)
    v SF9; Loss; QBR: 19.4 (2 Int's 10 for 26) one of the worst games ever in the SB - only Morton v DAL was worse.
    v GBY; Win; QBR: 51.9 (#4 rushing offense, #5 overall defense) 12 for 22 for 123 yards and a pick - wow..
    v ATL; Win; QBR: 99.2 (#2 rushing offense, #11 overall defense)
    Last edited by bagwell368; 03-27-2012 at 07:21 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  5. #1025
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Yes booed. He was hated mid career as people thought the "golden boy" was going to turn out to be the next Craig Morton. I was a witness to it. The papers and fans hated him.

    After the two late SB wins all was forgiven, and the reputation repaired. I can't be held accountable for telling the truth.

    Elway in the SB:

    v NYG; Loss; QBR: 83.6
    v WSH; Loss; QBR: 36.8 (3 Int's)
    v SF9; Loss; QBR: 19.4 (2 Int's 10 for 26) one of the worst games ever in the SB - only Morton v DAL was worse.
    v GBY; Win; QBR: 51.9 (#4 rushing offense, #5 overall defense) 12 for 22 for 123 yards and a pick - wow..
    v ATL; Win; QBR: 99.2 (#2 rushing offense, #11 overall defense)
    Not saying you're wrong but if anyone in the organization actually thought there was a chance he could be a Craig Morton why was he able to stay as the Starting Quarterback for the 15 years necessary to finally win a Superbowl?

    Everything I've ever read (including quotes from the 80's) was that John Elway was one of the best Quarterbacks of the time...
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  6. #1026
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Not saying you're wrong but if anyone in the organization actually thought there was a chance he could be a Craig Morton why was he able to stay as the Starting Quarterback for the 15 years necessary to finally win a Superbowl?

    Everything I've ever read (including quotes from the 80's) was that John Elway was one of the best Quarterbacks of the time...
    I'm not talking the organization. They were tied to him. BTW, how would I know what the organization thought of him? I'm talking fans - in the stands - with signs - yelling - not very nice things. Papers not printing very nice things. I'm talking the Denver papers. Not sure what you are reading or what you access is. He wasn't as bad as he was painted then. He's not as great as he's been painted since he got the 2 SB wins. But it is ironic that he's the face of the franchise - much like Ted Williams for the Red Sox - who was hated in many quarters in and out of Boston.

    Also I didn't give 15 years as a range, did I? They were quite patient out there from the draft through the beating he/Broncos took vs the Redskins in '87. From there through '92 was probably the worst of it (and it contains most of his bad years).

    Year - Rate+ (Rate+ means QBR vs league average of that year)

    1988 - 096
    1989 - 098
    1990 - 103
    1991 - 099
    1992 - 086

    So, for a FULL 1/3 of his career (contigious years in the heart of his physical peak) he wasn't even average. His rookie year he was a 075, and in '85 he was a 094. So 6/15's of his career he was below average. 2/15's of it he was just over average. Ultra elite QB's pretty much start showing up at 114 - he got over that 3 times in his career. Maybe I have him too high after all.... Oh? Listen up... I can hear it... "but he was a great runner". Yeah, he could run real well, but he also fumbled the ball a TON. He took a lot of sacks too.


    He started to become a respected gray beard around '93, and fans started wanting him to get more help, which he got. His fame rests IMO on being the golden armed golden boy (nay - HERO to his fans), of lasting a long time, and finally getting the prize. Nice story, but its got a lot of subjective elements. It ignores his crappy - yes crappy mid career years. It ignores his big ego in thinking he could fit balls in he shouldn't have thrown - look at those Int numbers). He's a HOF. But he's maybe 4th or 5th in PSD over the years when people are asked to name the "GOAT". Piffle, he's not even the goat of his own era (see below).

    I haven't redone my top 20 QB list lately but the past few times he's been coming out in the #12-13 range. Hardly an insult when I also include guys that played from the late 30's onward. If you want to talk post merger he's top 10 now, but there are a few guys that might be fixing to pass him in a few years.

    He played well in one of the SB's he lost, he played well in one of the ones he won. He sucked in the other 3. His overall QB Rating of 79.7 in the playoffs, his career regular season Rate of 105+ (uck). Marino has a 77.1 QBR in the playoffs (with worse teams then Elway had) - but his 113+ Rate in the regular season is why Marino > Elway. Montana has both of them lapped. So in his own time he's #3, how can he be the GOAT? Elway was only in the top 10 in QBR 5 times (3, 4, 4, 7, 5) - Marino 12 times including 3 1st place finishes. Montana 13 times with two 1st place finishes. Please don't wave the SB wins at Marino. His team was fundamentally on average far weaker then Elways. Plus lest we not forget, the Broncos CHEATED in both the years they won. They were caught and punished. Elway was in on it - since he was taking money under the table as part of his pay.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 03-28-2012 at 10:38 AM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  7. #1027
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    I'm not talking the organization. They were tied to him. BTW, how would I know what the organization thought of him? I'm talking fans - in the stands - with signs - yelling - not very nice things. Papers not printing very nice things. I'm talking the Denver papers. Not sure what you are reading or what you access is. He wasn't as bad as he was painted then. He's not as great as he's been painted since he got the 2 SB wins. But it is ironic that he's the face of the franchise - much like Ted Williams for the Red Sox - who was hated in many quarters in and out of Boston.

    Also I didn't give 15 years as a range, did I? They were quite patient out there from the draft through the beating he/Broncos took vs the Redskins in '87. From there through '92 was probably the worst of it (and it contains most of his bad years).

    Year - Rate+ (Rate+ means QBR vs league average of that year)

    1988 - 096
    1989 - 098
    1990 - 103
    1991 - 099
    1992 - 086

    So, for a FULL 1/3 of his career (contigious years in the heart of his physical peak) he wasn't even average. His rookie year he was a 075, and in '85 he was a 094. So 6/15's of his career he was below average. 2/15's of it he was just over average. Ultra elite QB's pretty much start showing up at 114 - he got over that 3 times in his career. Maybe I have him too high after all.... Oh? Listen up... I can hear it... "but he was a great runner". Yeah, he could run real well, but he also fumbled the ball a TON. He took a lot of sacks too.


    He started to become a respected gray beard around '93, and fans started wanting him to get more help, which he got. His fame rests IMO on being the golden armed golden boy (nay - HERO to his fans), of lasting a long time, and finally getting the prize. Nice story, but its got a lot of subjective elements. It ignores his crappy - yes crappy mid career years. It ignores his big ego in thinking he could fit balls in he shouldn't have thrown - look at those Int numbers). He's a HOF. But he's maybe 4th or 5th in PSD over the years when people are asked to name the "GOAT". Piffle, he's not even the goat of his own era (see below).

    I haven't redone my top 20 QB list lately but the past few times he's been coming out in the #12-13 range. Hardly an insult when I also include guys that played from the late 30's onward. If you want to talk post merger he's top 10 now, but there are a few guys that might be fixing to pass him in a few years.

    He played well in one of the SB's he lost, he played well in one of the ones he won. He sucked in the other 3. His overall QB Rating of 79.7 in the playoffs, his career regular season Rate of 105+ (uck). Marino has a 77.1 QBR in the playoffs (with worse teams then Elway had) - but his 113+ Rate in the regular season is why Marino > Elway. Montana has both of them lapped. So in his own time he's #3, how can he be the GOAT? Elway was only in the top 10 in QBR 5 times (3, 4, 4, 7, 5) - Marino 12 times including 3 1st place finishes. Montana 13 times with two 1st place finishes. Please don't wave the SB wins at Marino. His team was fundamentally on average far weaker then Elways. Plus lest we not forget, the Broncos CHEATED in both the years they won. They were caught and punished. Elway was in on it - since he was taking money under the table as part of his pay.
    First, let me say good post.

    Second, I wasn't trying to start anything, honestly, you'd know far better than me because I didn't live it so everything I hear has been secondhand.

    I've always ranked Elway in my Top 10 best ever (I only count SB Era because it's so hard to include guys like Graham or Halas), but I've never really ever thought of him as the GOAT.
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  8. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First, let me say good post.

    Second, I wasn't trying to start anything, honestly, you'd know far better than me because I didn't live it so everything I hear has been secondhand.

    I've always ranked Elway in my Top 10 best ever (I only count SB Era because it's so hard to include guys like Graham or Halas), but I've never really ever thought of him as the GOAT.
    No problem, I tried to make my post bullet proof against the two guys I expect may argue with it.

    You hit the nail on the head re a lot of folks. There is the laundry and there is the passed down stories. A lot of folks will argue that sort of thing about guys they never saw - except for highlights. There is no way I know more about the Broncos on a daily basis then these posters, in particular since Shanihan left. But back in the days of Steve Tensi forward until these fans came on line - yeah, I know the Broncos pretty well.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  9. #1029
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    I'm not gonna create a thread or anything, but for the people who think Elway was overrated, do you think he was better than Aikman?

    Genuine question.
    DUDA


    Quote Originally Posted by VendettaRed07 View Post
    noah is gonna be a beast man.

    with him and harvey, its like were gonna have Goku and Vegetta in the same rotation

  10. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigheyes4MVP View Post
    I'm not gonna create a thread or anything, but for the people who think Elway was overrated, do you think he was better than Aikman?

    Genuine question.
    Clearly better then Aikman.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  11. #1031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wade>Kobe:21050816
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdaddyburch View Post
    I agree Elway is a bit Overrated but I put him at that 7-8 mark. Those first three SBs the ones he lost the Broncos had no business even being there. You think Brady and Morino had some bad O weapons take a look at what Elway had. Even his D was bad. Outside Elway the only good to great player they had was Atwater.
    M-A-R-I-N-O.

    You keep spelling it "Morino" and it is driving me crazy.


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  12. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdaddyburch View Post
    I agree Elway is a bit Overrated but I put him at that 7-8 mark. Those first three SBs the ones he lost the Broncos had no business even being there. You think Brady and Morino had some bad O weapons take a look at what Elway had. Even his D was bad. Outside Elway the only good to great player they had was Atwater.
    Elway Defenses (pts allowed) top 10 rankings by year:

    1983 - 9
    1984 - 2
    1987 - 7
    1989 - 1
    1991 - 3
    1997 - 7
    1997 - 6
    1998 - 8

    Elway had 12 rushers over 800 yards (7 over 1000)

    Marino Defenses (pts allowed) top 10 rankings by year:

    1983 - 1
    1984 - 7
    1990 - 4
    1995 - 10
    1998 - 1

    Marino had 9 rushers over 800 yards (1 over 1000)

    So, Marino had less help from his defense and less help from his running game

    Marino was a better passer, and took very few sacks. He was well above average at everything but running the ball - and superb in some areas.

    Elway was worse in every area compared to Marino, only better at running.

    I'm sure if we factor the weather in, that Elway would creep up a bit, but in no way is he a better QB then Marino (outside of the legs).


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  13. #1033
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Yes booed. He was hated mid career as people thought the "golden boy" was going to turn out to be the next Craig Morton. I was a witness to it. The papers and fans hated him.

    After the two late SB wins all was forgiven, and the reputation repaired. I can't be held accountable for telling the truth.

    Elway in the SB:

    v NYG; Loss; QBR: 83.6
    v WSH; Loss; QBR: 36.8 (3 Int's)
    v SF9; Loss; QBR: 19.4 (2 Int's 10 for 26) one of the worst games ever in the SB - only Morton v DAL was worse.
    v GBY; Win; QBR: 51.9 (#4 rushing offense, #5 overall defense) 12 for 22 for 123 yards and a pick - wow..
    v ATL; Win; QBR: 99.2 (#2 rushing offense, #11 overall defense)
    Umm I lived it too. In fact I lived here in Denver during that time and I can tell you for a fact he was never hated here by the fans. Most blamed Reaves and and his over the top conservative play calling. Elway did not get the blame (around here anyway). Untill Tebow Elway was the most beloved football personality Denver has ever seen.


    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Elway Defenses (pts allowed) top 10 rankings by year:

    1983 - 9
    1984 - 2
    1987 - 7
    1989 - 1
    1991 - 3
    1997 - 7
    1997 - 6
    1998 - 8

    Elway had 12 rushers over 800 yards (7 over 1000)

    Marino Defenses (pts allowed) top 10 rankings by year:

    1983 - 1
    1984 - 7
    1990 - 4
    1995 - 10
    1998 - 1

    Marino had 9 rushers over 800 yards (1 over 1000)

    So, Marino had less help from his defense and less help from his running game

    Marino was a better passer, and took very few sacks. He was well above average at everything but running the ball - and superb in some areas.

    Elway was worse in every area compared to Marino, only better at running.

    I'm sure if we factor the weather in, that Elway would creep up a bit, but in no way is he a better QB then Marino (outside of the legs).
    Elway had a garbage O line and crap WRs and just as bad RB untill TD. I stated they had a couple ok guys on D. Denver's D was never feared and you know it. Yes a play maker here a ok guy there but nothing close to a whole unit. Marino did take sacks but he had a great O line and a quick release. Elway had a stronger arm but no time ever. He was for most of his career the most sacked QB in NFL history and not because he held on to the ball to long, but because he would say hike just as the D line was hitting him.

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  14. #1034
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdaddyburch View Post
    Umm I lived it too. In fact I lived here in Denver during that time and I can tell you for a fact he was never hated here by the fans. Most blamed Reaves and and his over the top conservative play calling. Elway did not get the blame (around here anyway). Untill Tebow Elway was the most beloved football personality Denver has ever seen.
    I remember it my way sorry. Elway mid career got a huge amount of guff - which BTW I though was over the top. Since he won his SB's he's clearly the most popular Bronco in history and with good reason. But it wasn't always so. The whole Tebow thing appears primarily driven in Denver by non serious football fans (not PSD mind you). To me it's almost unbelievable that such a amateurish player should have gotten so much notice for doing so little. Good for the Broncos that Elway flushed him out of town ASAP.

    Elway had a garbage O line and crap WRs and just as bad RB untill TD.
    I'm sorry, but he had some pretty fair backs, you might have forgotten some of them. He also had a period of pretty good WR's. In fact I'd say he had at least 5 years in his first 10 years in Denver with better offensive skill positions then the Pats had in 2001-2006. I agree on the offensive line, it wasn't that good.

    I stated they had a couple ok guys on D. Denver's D was never feared and you know it. Yes a play maker here a ok guy there but nothing close to a whole unit. Marino did take sacks but he had a great O line and a quick release. Elway had a stronger arm but no time ever. He was for most of his career the most sacked QB in NFL history and not because he held on to the ball to long, but because he would say hike just as the D line was hitting him.
    Marino took far less sacks per ATT then almost any QB, certainly much less then Elway. Look it up. Elway was not wise about throwing the ball away trusting to his arm to pull him and the team out of danger, and that failed quite a bit.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 04-01-2012 at 09:32 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

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