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Thread: Tom Brady

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Young did something that will never be done again. He finished 1st in QB Rating 6 out of a 7 year period.

    Young's Rate+ of 126 easily outclasses Manning at 118. I had Young at #1 for a couple of years until some that were on his teams came out and criticized him pretty heavily for "sins" quite similar to Manning. Also Young was a much better runner then Manning as well (Brady, Starr, Unitas, Marino, etc.)
    Did Young read defenses like Manning does ?
    Manning is a way better and complete passer than Young ..its not even close.
    Yeahh he is a better runner than Manning ..but also better runner than Brady ...does that mean he is a better QB ? absolutely not.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by joehieronymus View Post
    i understand it's a team sport, but i feel a super bowl championship is a prerequisite, so sorry marino...while i cannot speak to quarterbacks i have not seen play, i can list the best of my lifetime:

    1. john elway--arm, legs, will...not much talent around him for most of his career yet still won games consistently...as a kansas city fan, i remember entering the fourth quarter with the lead so many times & thinking elway would still figure out a way to win
    2. tom brady--no quarterback has put up the numbers or won as much over the last decade in such a variety of ways...he & his team have evolved, but they are always championship contenders as long as he is taking snaps
    3. joe montana--had more talent on both sides of the ball, but does not diminish his clutch ability...he was counted out so many times in his career, yet he always proved his doubters wrong
    4. peyton manning--for a long time, i just thought he was another marino: great stats, no heart...when he finally won the super bowl, i had to give him credit...his absence this last season only seals his case as what made the colts so good for the last ten-plus years
    5. ben roethlisberger--as a fan of the game, i don't like him...however i cannot deny his accomplishments...big, tough & mobile...he may get more championships before he's finished

    certainly, i acknowledge other quarterbacks have deserving resumes, but the likes of aaron rodgers, steve young, & drew brees have too small of a body of work to merit inclusion on my list...of course this could all change...
    Sorry, but Elway has no business in any top 10 listing outside of all time Bronco QB's - for a wide variety of reasons. He was the golden arm, and got by on stunning ability and shrimpy results for a few years, but long term Bronco fans squirm when you remind them of how badly he was booed for so long when the sum of his parts didn't add up during a solid half of his career. He got clobbered in the SB games he was in early on, and was being compared to Craig Morton of all people. Those late titles (tainted by cheating BTW) saved his reputation. He played well in the first and abysmally in the 2nd.

    Steve Young blows him out.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe good View Post
    Did Young read defenses like Manning does ?
    You have to look at guys in their time. The game changes - who did better at those things than Young in his time?

    Manning is a way better and complete passer than Young ..its not even close.
    Based on what? Young is the highest rated QB all time that isn't still active. Manning is 5th out of current QB's - and trails Young. In fact it is Manning that has nothing on Young. Young had a stronger arm, and a better QB/Int ratio, not to mention the legs.

    Young > Manning


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  4. #34
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    steve young was a difficult omission, i admit...i watched elway just win & win...it's true, i feel he was validated the last two seasons of his career (your cheating accusations are the first i've heard)...for most of his career, including the three super bowls, elway had a limited running game (sammy winder anyone?), less than stellar receivers (anyone look at the career stats of the three amigos?), & a defense that rarely was in the top half of the league (also, please note the point totals surrendered in the first three super bowl losses: 39, 42, 55)

    & truthfully, while i respect your opinion, it finally comes down to what i said initially...my chiefs would be leading by two scores late in the second half & elway would just will the broncos to a win...i know i'm not the only one who suffered because of this...i've often compared him to michael jordan solely on his clutch play

  5. #35
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    Really?

    I thought that football was a team sport. If having the 5th rated defense, 2nd rated defense, and 1st rated defense during each of your Superbowl wins, then I guess Rothlisberger should be there too. Those were also the times when the Pats defense was dirty also. How can you say he is one of the greatest. Even his record breaking season they had to go out and get Moss and Welker. He is overrated.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    You have to look at guys in their time. The game changes - who did better at those things than Young in his time?




    Euhmm let me see Brett Favre ? the only QB to have won the MVP 3 straight years

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palehose70 View Post
    I thought that football was a team sport. If having the 5th rated defense, 2nd rated defense, and 1st rated defense during each of your Superbowl wins, then I guess Rothlisberger should be there too. Those were also the times when the Pats defense was dirty also. How can you say he is one of the greatest. Even his record breaking season they had to go out and get Moss and Welker. He is overrated.
    are you on crack ?

    the guy is not considered one of the best ever only because of the ring.
    Best wins/losses ratio ever, best TD/int ratio ever, 3 SB, 2 SBMVP, 2 season MVP, season record for TD in a season, 1st unanimous MVP ever ...

    Is that enough ?

  8. #38
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    I think if he wins another superbow, he officially jumps ahead of Manning in my mind in the all time lure. But over Montana and even Dan? I don't know. Seems like a stretch.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    I don't think there is a GOAT QB, but there is a small group that the GOAT must come from:

    Montana
    Starr
    Graham
    Brady
    Staubach
    Baugh

    close but not cigar (at least one key issue holding them back):

    Marino
    Young
    Unitas
    Favre
    Manning

    Rodgers, Brees could be on one of these lists before long.

    Hardly any current fan has any information/feelings about Baugh and Graham, and few have much on Starr. Staubach isn't really understood well either, so in practical terms it comes down to Brady chasing Montana (his childhood hero). Another SB for Brady should put him into a near tie with Montana, 2-3 more QB hero seasons averaging like his last 4 full seasons and he's probably #1, another SB on top of that and only Montana die hards and Pats/Brady haters would object to him being #1.

    I remember one of your issues being yelling at teammates or crap like that. Didn't Brady have another outburst on the sidelines this year? I know there's at least more with that. So shouldn't he be off your "bus", or does he get a pass?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by joehieronymus View Post
    steve young was a difficult omission, i admit...i watched elway just win & win...it's true, i feel he was validated the last two seasons of his career (your cheating accusations are the first i've heard)...
    Note: this is from memory - so what I wrote below is not 100% accurate, I imported articles to document this maybe 1 to 1.5 years ago, go search if you want chapter and verse or search the web:

    To most I imagine they are lesser then the Cowboys and Pats, but they were caught twice making under the table payments to Elway and I think another player or two to circumvent the cap. The payments amounted to $2-3M range each year. That's one very good FA, or two decent vet FA's, or keeping someone you might have lost. Could they have won without them? Maybe, perhaps probably. But the fact that league hit them for big fines (money and pick(s) by the standards of the time means that they stepped well over the line.

    for most of his career, including the three super bowls, elway had a limited running game (sammy winder anyone?), less than stellar receivers (anyone look at the career stats of the three amigos?), & a defense that rarely was in the top half of the league (also, please note the point totals surrendered in the first three super bowl losses: 39, 42, 55)
    It's too bad that the NFC was a lot stronger then the AFC during most of Elway's time, but it was the case. The Broncos defense in his time was actually average on average. '92-'95 was the only time the D sucked year in and year out. '84, '87, '89, '91, '96, '97, '98 it was top 3rd or better.

    Winder in 4 of his first 6 years was a 3.8 or a 3.9 YPC runner, which is far from awful, and caught between 23 and 44 passes in a 4 year period. They also had Wilhite a solid back both in rushing and pass catching terms.

    Mark Jackson and Watson posted some very nice YPC seasons, and by the standards of that time the passes caught per season were not low.

    Certainly Elway had more targets then Brady did in 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006 in either all or almost all of his seasons.

    & truthfully, while i respect your opinion, it finally comes down to what i said initially...my chiefs would be leading by two scores late in the second half & elway would just will the broncos to a win...i know i'm not the only one who suffered because of this...i've often compared him to michael jordan solely on his clutch play
    His critics would note that Elway helped dig his teams into many of the holes he dug himself out of. I have him around #15-18 all time. Not terrible by any means, just not the best.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  11. #41
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    I personally think Montana and Marino are better, but I wouldn't kick up a stink if people made that statement after he won his 4th Superbowl.

  12. #42
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    Wow. A discussion of the Pats without it disintegrating into a "Belicheat, system QB, obnoxious NE fans" fest. Well done.

  13. #43
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    im sorry, brady's a great qb, but how long has he been dominant for? 07, 09, 10, 11(debatable, lots of yac). Thats 4 years. He was pretty beast when they beat the eagles in the sb. So maybe 5 years? I mean there are qb's out there that have been dominant for almost their entire career. Really, this nonsense needs to stop. He's an amazing qb, and amazing player, and I 100% agree he earned his two mvp seasons, but I just don't see how a player can be considered goat when half his career he was just a pretty good qb. He's been dominant only 3-5 years. If that's the case, I nominate bo jackson greatest rb ever

  14. #44
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    the superbowl has no bearing on how good brady is. he isn't suddenyl the ebst if his team wins a 4th superbowl, but not if he does. he's not even the best qb of his time frame, peyton is
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    You have to look at guys in their time. The game changes - who did better at those things than Young in his time?



    Based on what? Young is the highest rated QB all time that isn't still active. Manning is 5th out of current QB's - and trails Young. In fact it is Manning that has nothing on Young. Young had a stronger arm, and a better QB/Int ratio, not to mention the legs.

    Young > Manning
    Although don't you think Montana and Young should get knocked at least a little bit for the system they played in? Young went from terrible on the Bucs to one of the greatest of all time overnight once he was traded. Bill Walsh had a lot to do with that.

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