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Thread: Top 5 PGs

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    Rondo's a good player, but good makes him better than Jameer Nelson and Mo Williams. Big deal. Rondo has 2/3 of a game.

    Do you think he's closer to Jrue Holiday and Raymond Felton or Chris Paul and Derrick Rose? The NBA is loaded at PG.

    Westbrook, Rose, CP3, Deron Williams are the easy top 4. You got vets like Tony Parker and Steve Nash that can still ball (I hesitated to throw Jason Kidd in). You got guys like Kyle Lowry, Steph Curry, Ty Lawson, John Wall, Mike Conley, Kyrie Irving, Ricky Rubio and Brandon Jennings on the up and up. You have guys like Tyreke Evans and Monta Ellis that play the combo position. Thats 16 guys you can build on or around. You cannot build a team around Rondo. All these names aside, I would take LeBron or Wade at PG over any of them.

    Then in that 15-25 range you got your pure PGs and your guys that are still trying to find their way in the league; Calderon, Felton, Augustin, Teague, Collison, Chalmers, Jrue Holiday... Rondo probably fits in somewhere between Calderon and Teague.
    had to add you to my ignore list
    Quote Originally Posted by Kobe Bryant
    "You don't want Rondo? Send him my way," Kobe declared. "I love everything about him. Everything. I love his attitude, I love his chippiness, his edge, his intellect, his know-it-allness. All of it. That's what makes championship players.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashcuff View Post
    All the bolded guys are NOT better than Rondo and in most cases there is not a single sensible argument that can be made for then. Its insane to say that Teague, Calderon, Agustin, Collison, Chalmbers, Jrue (I'm a huge Holiday homer), Rubio, Conley or Jennings are anywhere near Rondo as of right now.

    Rondo is far and above the best player of that bunch. You really reached with that post.
    All they need to do is shoot or be able to score and there's an argument.

    A couple of them on the list need the rest of the season to play out. It'd be kind of silly to definitively say Rondo is better than Irving or Rubio but if I was starting a team or making a trade I'd take Rubio or Irving. Same goes for Ty Lawson and John Wall, but they have more games under their belt.
    Yea but Rondo wins all of those arguments with those other guys. When Rondo is really on his game he is without question that he deserves to be in the conversation around #5. What other PG do we know that can absolutely stack a stat sheet in the way Rondo can? Lowry, Rose and Paul.
    I know this is the dead horse of this debate, but a lot of guys could stack the stat sheet playing with Allen, Garnett and Pierce. I threw Calderon up there because I think he would put up stupid stats on the Celtics, and the other guys that are young and up-and-coming I think could perform at least as well as Rondo if they were put in the same golden situation.

    Rondo is in his niche right now. He doesn't need to shoot, he doesn't even need to score, he distributes the ball to very high percentage scorers (we're talking best shooters of the passed 15 years not just good shooters) and he plays top defense. Most of the other guys I listed up there are the focal points of the other team's game plan night in night out.

    Not to say that Rondo is "as bad as" Felton or Holiday or Calderon, I think those guys are good too.. but the NBA is loaded at the position. Rondo has 2/3 of a game and a lot of guys can do it all and a lot of guys are franchise players.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hustlenomics View Post
    had to add you to my ignore list
    Gee, the guy with a Rajon Rondo signature gives an 8 word response. There's a shocker.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    All they need to do is shoot or be able to score and there's an argument.
    No. Rondo while not a great shooter can score quite effectively when asked to.

    A couple of them on the list need the rest of the season to play out. It'd be kind of silly to definitively say Rondo is better than Irving or Rubio but if I was starting a team or making a trade I'd take Rubio or Irving. Same goes for Ty Lawson and John Wall, but they have more games under their belt.
    That's not the the debate however.

    I know this is the dead horse of this debate, but a lot of guys could stack the stat sheet playing with Allen, Garnett and Pierce. I threw Calderon up there because I think he would put up stupid stats on the Celtics, and the other guys that are young and up-and-coming I think could perform at least as well as Rondo if they were put in the same golden situation.
    That's all speculation however. Who is to say Rondo isn't making those guys better as well? Its a two way street and playing with Rondo both Pierce and Ray Allen have seen the best shooting years of their respective careers. Could this be the Rondo effect?

    Rondo is in his niche right now. He doesn't need to shoot, he doesn't even need to score, he distributes the ball to very high percentage scorers (we're talking best shooters of the passed 15 years not just good shooters) and he plays top defense. Most of the other guys I listed up there are the focal points of the other team's game plan night in night out.
    We're talking about guys who have gotten better when playing with Rondo. Also Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, and a host of others have been better shooters than Paul Pierce over that time span.

    Not to say that Rondo is "as bad as" Felton or Holiday or Calderon, I think those guys are good too.. but the NBA is loaded at the position. Rondo has 2/3 of a game and a lot of guys can do it all and a lot of guys are franchise players.
    Rondo is elite defensively and as a play maker and above average rebounder and posses all the tools you'd want in your PG outside of a steady jump shot and ability to make free throws. Now are these two things important YES. But is that alone going to make up for Rondo's intangible worth and overall play? No.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    All they need to do is shoot or be able to score and there's an argument.

    A couple of them on the list need the rest of the season to play out. It'd be kind of silly to definitively say Rondo is better than Irving or Rubio but if I was starting a team or making a trade I'd take Rubio or Irving. Same goes for Ty Lawson and John Wall, but they have more games under their belt.

    I know this is the dead horse of this debate, but a lot of guys could stack the stat sheet playing with Allen, Garnett and Pierce. I threw Calderon up there because I think he would put up stupid stats on the Celtics, and the other guys that are young and up-and-coming I think could perform at least as well as Rondo if they were put in the same golden situation.

    Rondo is in his niche right now. He doesn't need to shoot, he doesn't even need to score, he distributes the ball to very high percentage scorers (we're talking best shooters of the passed 15 years not just good shooters) and he plays top defense. Most of the other guys I listed up there are the focal points of the other team's game plan night in night out.

    Not to say that Rondo is "as bad as" Felton or Holiday or Calderon, I think those guys are good too.. but the NBA is loaded at the position. Rondo has 2/3 of a game and a lot of guys can do it all and a lot of guys are franchise players.
    You obviously haven't been watching the Celtics this year.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYMetros View Post
    You obviously haven't been watching the Celtics this year.
    That part also had me scratching my head. Pierce missed games early on and hasn't gotten himself going KG has regressed offensively and Allen though getting off to one of the hottest starts of his career shooting the basketball hasn't been the pillar of consistency. While Rondo its quite early Rondo is scoring at a better average (2nd of the Celts in scoring this year and actually leading the team in total points) than he ever has and is doing so with above average efficiency.

    It is not ideal for Rondo to be a 2nd or even a 3rd option like bagwell said earlier but he is playing pretty well regardless. You're not going to win many games with a PG like Rondo as your #1 or #2 as he's best suited in a facilitator role (just like J.Kidd) but that doesn't mean he isn't better than many other because of it.

  7. #247
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    Im laughing at the big 3 theory here for Rondo......... He is playing on a high level right now and KG/PP have been ******** the bed as of late....... idk just saying the big 3 are not the same as they were in 07...... Rondo has been the boss of the team for almost 2 seasons now
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullseyed View Post
    I kind of agree with this, but then we'd end up will BB in a helicopter trying to fly over random football fields all over the country.
    Big Brother is watching

  8. #248
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    i'm having a really hard time filling out my top 5.

    Cp3
    Rose
    Williams

    and then there's about 4 guys who could occupy those last two spots in:
    Westbrook
    Rondo
    Lowry
    Nash
    Quote Originally Posted by Catfish1314 View Post
    If they sold you with adultery between Delonte and Mrs. James, then here:

    Kenyon #Gangstarep Martin reppin that kiss on his neck. He almost ate Mark Cuban. #Steamysteams blockin those shots, your balls are in a no fly zone. Michael Redd my knees are back! Jannero...Jesus I can't do this.


    The PSD NBA Redraft GOAT speaking the truth

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashcuff View Post
    No. Rondo while not a great shooter can score quite effectively when asked to.
    He leaves a lot to be desired with his offensive game.
    That's all speculation however. Who is to say Rondo isn't making those guys better as well? Its a two way street and playing with Rondo both Pierce and Ray Allen have seen the best shooting years of their respective careers. Could this be the Rondo effect?
    Could be, it's probably the effect of Allen and PP playing next to eachother.
    We're talking about guys who have gotten better when playing with Rondo. Also Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, and a host of others have been better shooters than Paul Pierce over that time span.
    And nobody is better than Allen.
    Rondo is elite defensively and as a play maker and above average rebounder and posses all the tools you'd want in your PG outside of a steady jump shot and ability to make free throws. Now are these two things important YES. But is that alone going to make up for Rondo's intangible worth and overall play? No.
    I'm not saying he's bad. But there are about 20 good point guards in the league and he's toward the middle, not the top.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashcuff View Post
    It is not ideal for Rondo to be a 2nd or even a 3rd option like bagwell said earlier but he is playing pretty well regardless. You're not going to win many games with a PG like Rondo as your #1 or #2 as he's best suited in a facilitator role (just like J.Kidd) but that doesn't mean he isn't better than many other because of it.
    This is my only point right here. There are a lot of guys in the league capable of being in the facilitator role AND being the #1 or #2. Its not as much of a knock on Rondo as it is a testament to how many good guards there are in the league these days.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift Game View Post
    For me it's....

    Rose
    CP3
    Westbrook
    Lowry...( playing light out right now.) Can Lakers get him and Scola 4 Pau?
    Dwill/Rondo
    LOL no way in hell they get him at all let alone that.

  12. #252
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    http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post...st-point-guard

    Rose wins on a slightly larger scale, with CP3 #2

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    This is my only point right here. There are a lot of guys in the league capable of being in the facilitator role AND being the #1 or #2. Its not as much of a knock on Rondo as it is a testament to how many good guards there are in the league these days.
    No there isn't. The only ones capable of being a #1 is Rose and Paul. Westbrook is up there as well but his erratic play leaves a lot to be desired. Who else is there? Who has proven that they are quality #2s? Curry? Tony Parker? Do we then ignore the fact that Rondo is a better play maker and defensive player than those guys.

    Rondo isn't in the middle of the pack of anything and the arguments you gave suggest nothing of the sort. You need to come much better than just your opinion on where Rondo ranks if you're going to make us buy into it.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    He leaves a lot to be desired with his offensive game.
    Really? Well lets examine his effectiveness in a season in which he has led his team in overall offensive production and has had the ill-fortune of his best targets regressing quite a bit.

    This is going to take some time, time that not even the biggest Rondo homer would take (quite frankly the homers really can't even make a solid argument for their guy but say what) in making a case for him but here it goes anyway. Firstly lets compare these PGs play this season solely from an offensive POV.

    Code:
    Player	        PER	TS%	eFG%	AST%	USG% 	ORtg
    Derrick Rose	23.6	0.555	0.488	41.1	27.1	115
    Kyle Lowry	23	0.569	0.503	37.8	22.9	113
    Chris Paul	24.7	0.599	0.561	40.6	21.2	122
    Steve Nash	24	0.638	0.612	57.9	22.9	118
    Rajon Rondo	20.4	0.555	0.528	47.8	23	107
    R Westbrook	22.2	0.523	0.469	32.7	32.1	103
    Tony Parker	20.5	0.501	0.455	38.7	27.1	107
    Deron Williams	18.2	0.509	0.438	44.8	28.9	103
    Now though he's a horrendous shooter overall he's been a more efficient scorer than Parker, Williams and Westbrook as well as Daren Collison, Kobe Bryant, Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, Jrue Holiday, Monta Ellis etc etc.

    Now remember that this is suppose to be Rondo's downfall his efficiency but according to the facts he's actually above average in that aspect of his game amongst his peers thus far this season despite the fact that he's had a heavier burden placed on him to score and KG and Pierce aren't effectively helping him in that regard.

    FYI league average for TS% this season among PGs is 52.2% and Rajon Rondo is currently at 55.5% so that in itself shows some sort of success in that department. League average eFG% for PGs is 47.5% and well Rondo stands at 52.8% so again you do the simple maths based on his offensive production relative to his peers.

    Talking about simple math lets continue with that discussion and see who exactly generates the most offense among all these guys. I already did Nash and Lowry earlier in this thread so I'll continue along those lines.

    Code:
    	        Assists Leading To				
    Player	        2FG	3FG	2FG+3FG	PTS 	Overall
    Derrick Rose	6.8	1.9	19.3	20.8	40.1
    Kyle Lowry	6.7	2	19.4	16.7	36.1
    Chris Paul	7.3	1.5	19.1	18	37.1
    Steve Nash	8	2.1	22.3	15.1	37.4
    Rajon Rondo	6.7	2.7	21.5	15	36.5
    R Westbrook	4.2	1.3	12.3	20.5	32.8
    Tony Parker	4.7	2.7	17.5	16.7	34.2
    Deron Williams	4.7	3.7	20.5	18.4	38.9
    Now looking at this holistically. Do you still think Rondo leaves a lot to be desired offensively when his impact is greater than that of many of those you rank above him.

    This is an extremely small sample but in terms of offensive productivity relative to team Rondo this year ranks among nearer those at the top than those in the middle of the pack. If we take efficiency & production relative to team into consideration a solid case could be made for Rondo as a top 6 offensive PG in the NBA despite his lack of shooting ability. We haven't even started talking about defense or rebounding as yet even.

    Could be, it's probably the effect of Allen and PP playing next to eachother.
    That couldn't be more wrong however and anyone who watches Celtics games on a consistent basis knows this. In games where they didn't play alongside one another (like early on this season) neither player struggled with their stroke because Rondo was finding them in good positions to score regardless.

    And nobody is better than Allen.
    And % wise Allen has shot better with the Celtics than he has with any other team largely due to the fact that he has a facilitating PG as great as Rondo as his back court running mate.

    I'm not saying he's bad. But there are about 20 good point guards in the league and he's toward the middle, not the top.
    Well I think my post just dispelled this silly notion.

    In closing I'm going to say that Rajon Rondo is IMO a fringe top 5 PG and I think my posts back up my opinion. Now its time for you to back yours.

  15. #255
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    On shot attempts outside of 3 feet, Rondo is shooting 40%, and that's with men still playing 3 feet off of him.

    If he develops himself any consistent offensive game, it's going to be getting in the paint and drawing contact...But then comes the issues of his free throws which haven't gotten any better since his rookie season.

    His defense is top tier when he tries, and mediocre when he gambles for steals. He's capable of being a great defender, but he gets lazy.

    I've NEVER said Rondo isn't a good player, but my issue arises when Celtic fans talk about building around him as if he's a franchise player. He's incapable at being a top 3 option on the offensive end on a consistent basis. He's had too many outbursts of immaturity as well.

    I love him as the point guard of the Celtics team that Ainge constructed in 07, but look around. Everyone is digressing, Rondo has to be the leader, and the team is mediocre at best.

    RIGHT NOW, I have him ranked behind Paul, Rose, Deron, Nash and Westbrook. Curry would be in the mix if he could stay on the court. Jrue, TP and Lowry are right on his tail.

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