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  1. #1
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    Why doesn't anybody talk about Marino's...

    Simple question, when discussing the greatness of Dan Marino everyone points to his first 4 years in the league and the amazing yards and TD records he got in 1984. My question is, why doesn't anybody talk about the 13 years or so after those seasons? From 1986 on he had the following stats:

    58.9%, 45,184 Yards (246.9 ypg), 278 TDs (4.4%), 185 INTs (2.9%), 7.2 Y/A, 83.5 QB rating.

    While those are still good stats they aren't the mindblowing stats of his first 4 years. And digging deeper, why did his stats drop so sharply after his first 4 years?

    I'm not saying this to bash Dan Marino because I have my own opinions on him, I just want to get everyone's opinion on why this is, and whether they've ever considered it, and finally, how does it affect your judgement of him?

  2. #2
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    because its a lot easier to get those numbers today then it was back then.

  3. #3
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    that was good back then. it maybe be watered down now, but he doesn't play now. teams actually played defense and hit each other back then
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaruSoul View Post
    because its a lot easier to get those numbers today then it was back then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinstripe power View Post
    that was good back then. it maybe be watered down now, but he doesn't play now. teams actually played defense and hit each other back then
    I'm not disputing that it is way easier to accumulate excellent stats nowadays as opposed to back then, but even his dominance vs. his peers took a nosedive.

    Consider his first 4 years he led the leage in Yards 3 times (straight), TDs 3 times (straight), Y/A once, and QB rating once.

    After those 4 years he led the league in yards twice and Interceptions once.

    That is a startling dropoff in dominance. Do you have any thoughts on that dropoff?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I'm not disputing that it is way easier to accumulate excellent stats nowadays as opposed to back then, but even his dominance vs. his peers took a nosedive.

    Consider his first 4 years he led the leage in Yards 3 times (straight), TDs 3 times (straight), Y/A once, and QB rating once.

    After those 4 years he led the league in yards twice and Interceptions once.

    That is a startling dropoff in dominance. Do you have any thoughts on that dropoff?
    Good points, I don't think the other posters so far understand the point you are trying to make.

    What it seems to me like is that you're saying he refered to as one of the best QB's of all time people don't recognize that after his first 4 years he was just slightly above average. I hate Favre but looking at those #'s for the last 13 years they look like what Favre would have done, not the best and a lot of INT's.

    Marino, possibly overrated it seems, never really looked at the stats this way but those #'s are not great, nor even very good even for the time, those #'s are just above average I'd say and the TD/INT rate is pretty poor.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I'm not disputing that it is way easier to accumulate excellent stats nowadays as opposed to back then, but even his dominance vs. his peers took a nosedive.

    Consider his first 4 years he led the leage in Yards 3 times (straight), TDs 3 times (straight), Y/A once, and QB rating once.

    After those 4 years he led the league in yards twice and Interceptions once.

    That is a startling dropoff in dominance. Do you have any thoughts on that dropoff?
    i was born near the end of marino's 4th season, so i really am not sure what caused the drop there. didn't see all that much of marino.
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  7. #7
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    Marino would have won a Super Bowl if he a legit defense and a balanced offense.

  8. #8
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    I put Marino as around 5th all time. I think the reason he does not get talked about is because he retired in 1999 and hasn't been great since a few years before that.

    People talk about current players and guys with a bunch of titles.

    I'd also like to add that people should talk about Jim Kelly more then they do, he wasn't as good as Marino but is better then most of the guys we talk about as great.

  9. #9
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    Same reason nobody ever talks about John Elway's career before and after the combination of Shanahan / TD arrived.

    Same reason people will eventually forget Brett Favre's interceptions.

    The time they played the game, and greatness outweighs negatives.

  10. #10
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    A lot of it had to do with talent. People talk about the drastic differences for Brady before/after talent arrived.

    Marino never had Brady's level of offensive talent, but he did have a couple of very good WR. Also, technically, the dropoff did not come until his 6th season, not 5th.

    From the 6th season on, there was definitely a drop-off, but if you look at the adjusted+ numbers, it looks like the production across the entire league dropped off, and Marino's rate+ stayed quite good, and relatively close to what it had been those years. It was certainly a dropoff - no doubt. However, it was not as steep a drop as the raw numbers make it appear at first glimpse.

    First 5 rate+

    125
    141
    113
    124
    119

    Over the next 9 years, his rate+ only dropped below 110 3x, and only below 108 once.

    His INT%+ actually improved, even though his INT% itself got a bit worse for a period. His TD% decreased, and his completion% fell off the map. However, his Comp%+ for his career is actually close to Brady's. So again, the raw numbers are a little bit deceiving.

    Did he suddenly become less accurate? Did he suddenly become unable to complete TD passes in the redzone?

    Instead, the more likely answer is multi-faceted and is a large reason why he never won a SB.

    1) Talent

    - Marino's best WRs that he ever played with were named Mark Clayton and Mark Duper. These guys were 5'9'' speedsters, while Clayton was also a good possession receiver. These guys weren't going to make a ton of plays for Marino - they simply weren't physically gifted enough to do so.

    Duper's legs gave out really early and by Marino's 6th year (1988), Duper was already clearly on the decline, and not much good without his speed. Marino had also lost Nat Moore who had been a redzone target and a productive receiver for the team for years, who retired in 1986. True to form, the Dolphins didn't replace him.

    Do me a favor. Look at the Miami Dolphins' receiving targets from 1988-1996. Tell me who Marino had other than Mark Clayton - who was a 5'9'' guy on the decline after about 1990. Seriously. Do it. Do it. Tell me one receiver that is someone worth remembering, someone you've ever heard of?

    2) Running Game

    - People talk about Marino's stats being a product of not having a running game. This was true in his first few years, but his volume stats per year aren't super impressive after that point - as you've well noted. Instead, Marino's team's lack of running ability made it to where teams could load up on the pass and force Marino to make plays against 7 men in coverage. As we've seen, even Brady, Manning, and Rodgers struggle against a defense that can do this.

    Add to this the rules back then, and without a running game to keep defensive backs honest, 5'9'' and untalented WRs didn't stand a chance against 6 or 7 men in coverage.

    3) Offensive Coordinators

    - Marino never played with a good passing OC. Thus, when the talent left, and the defenses adjusted to what the Dolphins were doing, Marino never had someone else to adjust the offense, the routes, etc, to set them up for more success. While San Francisco was running the West Coast offense and thriving on high-percentage plays with short passes to talented backs, TEs, and Jerry Rice, Marino was playing in a vertical offense without the talent to do so, with a coach (OC) who had thrived in his career off of running offenses.

    4) Defense

    - Really, enough said. Look at the defense and their performance in terms of points-per-game each year after that. Marino played in 37 games where his opponents scored 35+ points. Montana and Brady, combined, have played in 13 such games. When they have, they haven't faired well.

    When you're down, and down big, you take more risks, play more poorly. Without the talented offensive players he had in his first 5 years, where he could run the score up early as a front-runner much like Brady and Rodgers have become famous for (and Marino was famous for in his early years), and without a running game to relieve pressure, a pass-first offense without offensive talent playing for a team with bad defenses found themselves in big holes pretty often.

    QB's play poorly in big holes. It's a well-documented fact and it rings true for every great QB to ever play the game. The problem was, Marino faced far more big holes than any other great QB, because of his miserable defense.

    5) Eventually, Health.

    By 1992 Marino started to suffer injuries to his knees, and he was really not the same player after 1994. He declined early, and declined very, very quickly.


    Essentially, Dolphins fans have been living the reality that is Marino's career, but without Marino, for many years. The team you see today, the team that is 6-10, with poor coaching, and that has yet to pick a big offensive star in the 1st round in years, and years, and years, and has never once tried to address our QB hole in the 1st round, but instead been happy to try and fill the spot with Joey Harrington, Brian Grease, Cleo Lemon, Daunte Culpepper, Gus Frerrote, Chad Pennington, and Matt Moore.... that's the same team that never drafted the talent Marino needed around him, and never brought in a new coach with a fresh vision and workable offense - ultimately leading to Marino rotting in Miami.

    Since then, instead of Miami being a pseudo-contender with a QB carrying their dead corpse around, we've just been a dead corpse for much of the era.

    We had a few years with a nice defense that carried us after Marino, but that's all we have to hang out hats on. This team has been poorly run since 1986, and it has become painfully obvious with each passing year as a fan.
    Last edited by WadeKobe; 01-25-2012 at 04:07 PM.

  11. #11
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    People don't talk about Marino's stats after his 4th season, because they're just not comparable to quarterbacks in today's game. QB's now get so much white glove protection, it really isn't funny. What Marino did in his era when mugging a receiver down field was encouraged is just insane. He did it when you rarely saw a roughing the passer call. His numbers were outright gaudy compared to his peers. You can't really say that about any modern era quarterback, except perhaps Peyton Manning. He too though is a benefactor of the rules changes. I've said this elsewhere, but when Walsh says Marino "was the system" while having another great in Joe Montana as his starter, that is saying something. Anyone that actually watched Marino play in the 80's and 90's would tell you that he might be the best ever. I cringe when I think what Marino could have done, had the rules of today existed during his era.
    Last edited by Luxy312; 01-25-2012 at 04:17 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinstripe power View Post
    i was born near the end of marino's 4th season, so i really am not sure what caused the drop there. didn't see all that much of marino.
    Oh that explains it........... Your love for Alex Smith that is.....You don't know better.

    Defenses got tougher, AFC teams got a whole lot better. One QB in particular was a beast during that time, his name was John Elway. Bernie Kosar, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon. Those guys kept Marino away from a SB. Marino stats was still good but the Dolphins team in general just declined over the years.....to where they are today. Dan Mario was and still is the Miami Dolphins.

    To bad Drew Brees didn't go there, he would have been a beast down there. Hopefully Miami will draft a stud QB one day to help Miami get back on top.

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing56&33 View Post
    Oh that explains it........... Your love for Alex Smith that is.....You don't know better.

    Defenses got tougher, AFC teams got a whole lot better. One QB in particular was a beast during that time, his name was John Elway. Bernie Kosar, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon. Those guys kept Marino away from a SB. Marino stats was still good but the Dolphins team in general just declined over the years.....to where they are today. Dan Mario was and still is the Miami Dolphins.

    To bad Drew Brees didn't go there, he would have been a beast down there. Hopefully Miami will draft a stud QB one day to help Miami get back on top.
    love for alex smith? i dont like alex smith, nor do i think he's all that good
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  14. #14
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    I have no idea about any of it, but maybe Shula started playing offense a little differently. Or they might have lost certain personel that made a huge difference. There are a lot of reasons his stats might have fallen off a little bit but after those first few years of dominance it would be hard for anyone to continue that production

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wade>Kobe View Post
    A lot of it had to do with talent. People talk about the drastic differences for Brady before/after talent arrived.

    Marino never had Brady's level of offensive talent, but he did have a couple of very good WR. Also, technically, the dropoff did not come until his 6th season, not 5th.

    From the 6th season on, there was definitely a drop-off, but if you look at the adjusted+ numbers, it looks like the production across the entire league dropped off, and Marino's rate+ stayed quite good, and relatively close to what it had been those years. It was certainly a dropoff - no doubt. However, it was not as steep a drop as the raw numbers make it appear at first glimpse.

    First 5 rate+

    125
    141
    113
    124
    119

    Over the next 9 years, his rate+ only dropped below 110 3x, and only below 108 once.

    His INT%+ actually improved, even though his INT% itself got a bit worse for a period. His TD% decreased, and his completion% fell off the map. However, his Comp%+ for his career is actually close to Brady's. So again, the raw numbers are a little bit deceiving.

    Did he suddenly become less accurate? Did he suddenly become unable to complete TD passes in the redzone?

    Instead, the more likely answer is multi-faceted and is a large reason why he never won a SB.

    1) Talent

    - Marino's best WRs that he ever played with were named Mark Clayton and Mark Duper. These guys were 5'9'' speedsters, while Clayton was also a good possession receiver. These guys weren't going to make a ton of plays for Marino - they simply weren't physically gifted enough to do so.

    Duper's legs gave out really early and by Marino's 6th year (1988), Duper was already clearly on the decline, and not much good without his speed. Marino had also lost Nat Moore who had been a redzone target and a productive receiver for the team for years, who retired in 1986. True to form, the Dolphins didn't replace him.

    Do me a favor. Look at the Miami Dolphins' receiving targets from 1988-1996. Tell me who Marino had other than Mark Clayton - who was a 5'9'' guy on the decline after about 1990. Seriously. Do it. Do it. Tell me one receiver that is someone worth remembering, someone you've ever heard of?

    2) Running Game

    - People talk about Marino's stats being a product of not having a running game. This was true in his first few years, but his volume stats per year aren't super impressive after that point - as you've well noted. Instead, Marino's team's lack of running ability made it to where teams could load up on the pass and force Marino to make plays against 7 men in coverage. As we've seen, even Brady, Manning, and Rodgers struggle against a defense that can do this.

    Add to this the rules back then, and without a running game to keep defensive backs honest, 5'9'' and untalented WRs didn't stand a chance against 6 or 7 men in coverage.

    3) Offensive Coordinators

    - Marino never played with a good passing OC. Thus, when the talent left, and the defenses adjusted to what the Dolphins were doing, Marino never had someone else to adjust the offense, the routes, etc, to set them up for more success. While San Francisco was running the West Coast offense and thriving on high-percentage plays with short passes to talented backs, TEs, and Jerry Rice, Marino was playing in a vertical offense without the talent to do so, with a coach (OC) who had thrived in his career off of running offenses.

    4) Defense

    - Really, enough said. Look at the defense and their performance in terms of points-per-game each year after that. Marino played in 37 games where his opponents scored 35+ points. Montana and Brady, combined, have played in 13 such games. When they have, they haven't faired well.

    When you're down, and down big, you take more risks, play more poorly. Without the talented offensive players he had in his first 5 years, where he could run the score up early as a front-runner much like Brady and Rodgers have become famous for (and Marino was famous for in his early years), and without a running game to relieve pressure, a pass-first offense without offensive talent playing for a team with bad defenses found themselves in big holes pretty often.

    QB's play poorly in big holes. It's a well-documented fact and it rings true for every great QB to ever play the game. The problem was, Marino faced far more big holes than any other great QB, because of his miserable defense.

    5) Eventually, Health.

    By 1992 Marino started to suffer injuries to his knees, and he was really not the same player after 1994. He declined early, and declined very, very quickly.


    Essentially, Dolphins fans have been living the reality that is Marino's career, but without Marino, for many years. The team you see today, the team that is 6-10, with poor coaching, and that has yet to pick a big offensive star in the 1st round in years, and years, and years, and has never once tried to address our QB hole in the 1st round, but instead been happy to try and fill the spot with Joey Harrington, Brian Grease, Cleo Lemon, Daunte Culpepper, Gus Frerrote, Chad Pennington, and Matt Moore.... that's the same team that never drafted the talent Marino needed around him, and never brought in a new coach with a fresh vision and workable offense - ultimately leading to Marino rotting in Miami.

    Since then, instead of Miami being a pseudo-contender with a QB carrying their dead corpse around, we've just been a dead corpse for much of the era.

    We had a few years with a nice defense that carried us after Marino, but that's all we have to hang out hats on. This team has been poorly run since 1986, and it has become painfully obvious with each passing year as a fan.
    This might be one of the best posts I've ever read

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