Adrian Gonzalez vs Miguel Cabrera

[FortDetroit]

He has a problem no doubt. He goes to counseling to help prevent something like this from happening again and to correct the problem. Is that supposed to be a bad thing he's trying his best to correct the issue? He has had two mishaps in the past 4-5 years. You can be committed to your sobriety and still make mistakes you know. His attitude is not an issue. He works hard, shows up to the ball park every day, and kicks *** on the field. He's had two isolated incidents in the past 4-5 years.

I'm in the clubhouse and player's minds just as much as you are as you make your ridiculous baseless statements. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that living near a city where news about said team is ongoing and constantly flowing gives one a better grasp and feel for the type of situation the Tigers are in and the dynamics of the team as a whole.

[Jeffy25]

Are we really using Miguel's off field drinking related instances to discount his value as a baseball player?

Last time I checked, we only care about what a baseball player does on the field.

I know plenty of people, as well myself have had drinking related instances in my life that were from pure stupidity. It doesn't make someone an alcoholic or prevent them from being effective at their jobs. I have a very successful career despite having a few isolated stupid instances in my earlier 20's. I never missed worked or allowed it to affect anything else, it was just stupid young adult moments. Don't bring up Cabrera's temporary stupidity as a reason to discount his on field baseball abilities and values. He is one of the best hitters of our generation.

[bagwell368]

He has a problem no doubt. He goes to counseling to help prevent something like this from happening again and to correct the problem. Is that supposed to be a bad thing he's trying his best to correct the issue? He has had two mishaps in the past 4-5 years. You can be committed to your sobriety and still make mistakes you know.

Regular rank and file people deal with this sort of thing all the time. But he's paid an enormous amount of money to play baseball - and by the presence of morals clauses in contracts, it's important that he is ready to go - every day - according to the owner that pays him, and the sport as a whole. And not show up hung over, or get flung in jail (he's running out of second choices). It's hard to quantify, but his career is liable to be shortened as well, I'm sure the team who is paying him at that time won't be amused by this development - would you?

His attitude is not an issue. He works hard, shows up to the ball park every day, and kicks *** on the field. He's had two isolated incidents in the past 4-5 years.

It's impossible to quantify that his attitude is not an issue and that he hasn't lost time due to his problems. It's also impossible for you to assure me of these things.

I'm in the clubhouse and player's minds just as much as you are as you make your ridiculous baseless statements. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that living near a city where news about said team is ongoing and constantly flowing gives one a better grasp and feel for the type of situation the Tigers are in and the dynamics of the team as a whole.

Ridiculous? You tried to fob me off by insulting my choice in web sites to use. And so sorry, I've already used this line on you first - or did you fail to read my post? It's not baseless, baseball is chock full of guys that couldn't keep it together with this issue and similar issues. Just because you are a fan of the guy gives you no insight beyond mine, and no right to claim such things like "his attitude is not an issue" - I mean honestly, that's ridiculous. You think because you are a Tigers fan in denial it gives your opinion more credence than mine? That claim right there gives you less.

Face it, Miggy has problems (including domestic battery) and Gonzalez does not (that I have heard of, feel free to dig it up if you can). That is quite likely to have an impact. Let's add that as a RC stat. Each year is an additional -3, -6, -9, -12, -15 for the next 5 years due to lost time (jail, clinic) and/or failing health.

[bagwell368]

Are we really using Miguel's off field drinking related instances to discount his value as a baseball player?

Since we are talking about the future of two closely matched players, an issue of persistent drinking AND spousal battery can certainly play a major role in the future, since it appears to only affect one of them and not the other. Periodic out of control drinking and assault are just the iceberg tips of a deep set combination of issues. When will this resurface and what will be the behavior then?

Last time I checked, we only care about what a baseball player does on the field.

Any time we discuss future performance, we have to weigh what we know about the players. If one guy is 38 and the other is 33 - that wouldn't count? Sure it would. Well I'm betting Cabrera will have more negative issues related to these things then Gonzalez.

I know plenty of people, as well myself have had drinking related instances in my life that were from pure stupidity. It doesn't make someone an alcoholic or prevent them from being effective at their jobs.

Puking in the toilet in college and driving drunk and getting away with it does not mean someone has a problem. But in one of the URL's I found on Miggy's latest issue he said he doesn't believe he has a problem. Whoa... Paid how much to do a job that he is hanging over the edge along with his life and/or freedom? Yeah I can see how that is the same thing as a college kid I cited above. NOT.

I have a very successful career despite having a few isolated stupid instances in my earlier 20's. I never missed worked or allowed it to affect anything else, it was just stupid young adult moments. Don't bring up Cabrera's temporary stupidity as a reason to discount his on field baseball abilities and values. He is one of the best hitters of our generation.

I don't discount what he HAS DONE. I question how much more of it he can do. I know you know all about Mantle. It wasn't a one or two or three time thing for Mantle. It's naive beyond measure IMO to think Miggy gets bagged every time he actually does something. It isn't TEMPORARY. It's somewhere between contstant and cyclical - NOT TEMPORARY. Sounds like the excuses of an enabler to me - with all due respect.

[FortDetroit]

Are we really using Miguel's off field drinking related instances to discount his value as a baseball player?

Last time I checked, we only care about what a baseball player does on the field.

I know plenty of people, as well myself have had drinking related instances in my life that were from pure stupidity. It doesn't make someone an alcoholic or prevent them from being effective at their jobs. I have a very successful career despite having a few isolated stupid instances in my earlier 20's. I never missed worked or allowed it to affect anything else, it was just stupid young adult moments. Don't bring up Cabrera's temporary stupidity as a reason to discount his on field baseball abilities and values. He is one of the best hitters of our generation.

It really sounds like wishful thinking by others to me. He's supposedly been a heavy drinker his entire career and he's missed an average of 3.75 games per year over the past 8 seasons (did not include his rookie season because wasn't in the majors for the full year) while being among the best hitters in the game in that timespan. To drastically assume it's all of a sudden just going to affect his game next season (and hence the comparison between Adrian Gonzalez and Miggy) and we should knock him down a peg on the rankings is baseless.

[Jeffy25]

Since we are talking about the future of two closely matched players, an issue of persistent drinking AND spousal battery can certainly play a major role in the future, since it appears to only affect one of them and not the other. Periodic out of control drinking and assault are just the iceberg tips of a deep set combination of issues. When will this resurface and what will be the behavior then?



Any time we discuss future performance, we have to weigh what we know about the players. If one guy is 38 and the other is 33 - that wouldn't count? Sure it would. Well I'm betting Cabrera will have more negative issues related to these things then Gonzalez.



Puking in the toilet in college and driving drunk and getting away with it does not mean someone has a problem. But in one of the URL's I found on Miggy's latest issue he said he doesn't believe he has a problem. Whoa... Paid how much to do a job that he is hanging over the edge along with his life and/or freedom? Yeah I can see how that is the same thing as a college kid I cited above. NOT.



I don't discount what he HAS DONE. I question how much more of it he can do. I know you know all about Mantle. It wasn't a one or two or three time thing for Mantle. It's naive beyond measure IMO to think Miggy gets bagged every time he actually does something. It isn't TEMPORARY. It's somewhere between contstant and cyclical - NOT TEMPORARY. Sounds like the excuses of an enabler to me - with all due respect.

Future predictive values, certainly. There is a better chance that Cabrera has another negative off the field incident than Gonzalez will, but there are many factors, one being that we don't even know the probability of that happening again, since it's based on Miggy's self control, and two we don't know if another incident, depending on the degree of it, would even affect his on the field baseball performance.



I just think it's too minor of a thing to make up for the differences in their hitting results. If all things were equal I would agree with you, but Cabrera has shown to be a better hitter than Gonzalez in park neutral statistics.

Whatever Cabrera has dealt with off the field is between him and his family and friends. If he has another incident he could be looking at jail time or other issues. But if he is good, and never has another incident, I don't see how we can weigh him down whenever we are comparing him to another ball player for their on the field results.

Nothing against you at all Bagwell, I just don't think it's worth bringing up. It would be like comparing me (CFO) to an executive in my company beneath me. While my performance and results have been stronger than anything that executive has done in say the last 4 years, it would be like you choosing to hire the executive because he has never had any documented drinking related incidents. Even though these incidents are well in the past, and have nothing to do with our work.

That's how I look at it. I'm not trying to defend the actions of Miggy, or what he has done. But I have been there (never beat anyone or did any of that crap, just was stupid enough to drink too much and then drive when I was 21) and I try to remain understanding to those that have had similar incidents. I was labeled an alcoholic, my parents were convinced I had a drinking issue etc. In reality, I didn't, I just made a stupid mistake after drinking too much. Should have known better, and need to simply make sure to never do it again. Our society over-reacts sometimes to things like this. I'm not trying to justify it, or drinking and driving, but I think people tend to take former actions too seriously when discussing it.

Honestly, I'm surprised someone would even bring it up, it really has nothing to do with their work performances, not unless it ever happens again, and that probability is probably fairly low (depends on the persons self control).

[bagwell368]

It really sounds like wishful thinking by others to me. He's supposedly been a heavy drinker his entire career and he's missed an average of 3.75 games per year over the past 8 seasons (did not include his rookie season because wasn't in the majors for the full year) while being among the best hitters in the game in that timespan. To drastically assume it's all of a sudden just going to affect his game next season (and hence the comparison between Adrian Gonzalez and Miggy) and we should knock him down a peg on the rankings is baseless.

Have you actually spent any time around alcoholics? It takes a bigger and bigger toll as time mounts up. There is nothing drastic about it. It's the tragic outcome of that behavior.

We'll see how the next 5-6 years play out. I'd just rather not be backing the guy with monkey on his back.

[bagwell368]

Future predictive values, certainly. There is a better chance that Cabrera has another negative off the field incident than Gonzalez will, but there are many factors, one being that we don't even know the probability of that happening again, since it's based on Miggy's self control, and two we don't know if another incident, depending on the degree of it, would even affect his on the field baseball performance.

OK

I just think it's too minor of a thing to make up for the differences in their hitting results. If all things were equal I would agree with you, but Cabrera has shown to be a better hitter than Gonzalez in park neutral statistics.

But, Gonzalez gets to hit in a line-up and a park that are not neutral for him, and he will continue to derive positive value from his fielding, which since this thread is MC vs AG must be accounted for. The figures I referenced seems to indicate that they are very close over all.

Whatever Cabrera has dealt with off the field is between him and his family and friends. If he has another incident he could be looking at jail time or other issues. But if he is good, and never has another incident, I don't see how we can weigh him down whenever we are comparing him to another ball player for their on the field results.

He hasn't been able to keep away from trouble, and I'm afraid his relationship to his employer and MLB is also critical.

Nothing against you at all Bagwell, I just don't think it's worth bringing up. It would be like comparing me (CFO) to an executive in my company beneath me. While my performance and results have been stronger than anything that executive has done in say the last 4 years, it would be like you choosing to hire the executive because he has never had any documented drinking related incidents. Even though these incidents are well in the past, and have nothing to do with our work.

Sorry but that's a crummy example. Gonzalez the past 3 years is not below Cabrera. Using BR's defensive stats (better then FG's at 1B), and RC we get a picture that is essentially even.

That's how I look at it. I'm not trying to defend the actions of Miggy, or what he has done. But I have been there (never beat anyone or did any of that crap, just was stupid enough to drink too much and then drive when I was 21) and I try to remain understanding to those that have had similar incidents. I was labeled an alcoholic, my parents were convinced I had a drinking issue etc. In reality, I didn't, I just made a stupid mistake after drinking too much. Should have known better, and need to simply make sure to never do it again. Our society over-reacts sometimes to things like this. I'm not trying to justify it, or drinking and driving, but I think people tend to take former actions too seriously when discussing it.

Did you have a multi million dollar contract, and have an entire organization depending on you at that age? If you had would have taken the wheel? Well he did, and he did. He seems to be far more enmeshed in his issues then you did or do.

Honestly, I'm surprised someone would even bring it up, it really has nothing to do with their work performances, not unless it ever happens again, and that probability is probably fairly low (depends on the persons self control).

I sort of forgot about the first one for some time, but this latest episode brought it all back. It cannot be quantified at the moment, but it's a fuzzy piece sitting on the edge of our memories. If he screws up again, I believe many people will lose patience and trust in the man - perhaps he will in himself too. I don't want him to fail in this way over a debate on PSD, but, I've seen entirely too much of human fraility in my life to be shocked if he screws up again - same for anyone else in this situation.

[Shamrock]

I like Miggy by the slightest of margins.

[avrpatsfan]

I'll go with Cabrera too

[FortDetroit]

serious question...what the heck is up with adrian gonzalez this year?

[Green_Monster]

Why are you asking that? Because he doesn't have a lot of HR's? If I recall correctly, he is leading or close to leading the league in doubles.

[FortDetroit]

Why are you asking that? Because he doesn't have a lot of HR's? If I recall correctly, he is leading or close to leading the league in doubles.

What? Has nothing to do with homeruns. He has a .747 OPS...which is about 200 points less than last season. Is he injured or something?

[Jeffy25]

Why are you asking that? Because he doesn't have a lot of HR's? If I recall correctly, he is leading or close to leading the league in doubles.

He is hitting
.284/.330/.417, 97 wRC+
He is a career
.292/.371/.506, 132 wRC+ majority of his career in a pitchers park


League average first basemen are hitting
.257/.333/.436, 110 wRC+

And we are comparing him to a guy who was, and has remained a top 5 hitter in all of baseball very consistently.

Adrian has been pretty bad this year compared to his normal self.

But, he has played a lot of right this year, to help his team out. That is worth something, but his offense has been a disappointment, 27 doubles or not.

[FortDetroit]

No, I am giving odds that he is more likely to be a total disaster for his team due to personal defects in the future then Agon - as he has in the past. Predictions based on fact are always more accurate then passion based on fanhood I find.

So you think having a drunken* wife beater* on the team IS good for a team, is that your stance, or is that Miggy can do no wrong, because you are an apologist for him? So what is too far to go for you?

* He's "cured" you say? Check out the recidivism on those two scourges.

The only total disaster has been Adrian Gonzalez's hitting this season. Meanwhile Miggy continues to slug away like the HOF caliber player he is.

Maybe A-Gone started drinking heavily this season????????????? You can keep your better fielding 1st baseman (or RF now I guess?)