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View Poll Results: Who's better?

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  • Adrian Gonzalez

    29 34.52%
  • Miguel Cabrera

    55 65.48%
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  1. #46
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    Yeah but, who has the most RBI?

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortDetroit View Post
    Sure, if we were comparing Miggy to Gonzalez from when he was on the Padres. But we're not. He was playing in one of the best offensive ballparks in all of MLB last season and his numbers from last season were still well below what Cabrera has done the past two seasons.
    Gonazlez has played almost his entire career in Petco. If you're comparing career numbers then you're essentially comparing Cabrera to Gonzalez when he was with the Padres. Either that, or you're using selective 1 or 2 year sample sizes.

  3. #48
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    For the last three years (because I don't think work prior to that is relevant to a discussion about who is better today. If you are asking about who has a better career it's different information)

    As far as moving forward, give me Miggy.

    2009-2011
    Miggy - .422 wOBA, 163 wRC+
    A-Gone - .396 wOBA, 151 wRC+

    And honestly, Miggy has also had a better career.


    A-Gone has yet to have a season superior to Miggy, park adjusted and not park adjusted (MAYBE 2009, and I wouldn't bet my first born that it was a better season and it was 3 years ago). A-Gone is better defensively, but that doesn't mean much at first base.


    Give me Miggy

    I have always liked A-Gone, a good, under the radar player for a long time that us stat heads loved. But Miggy is potentially the best hitter in the game right now, and is easily in the top 5. A-Gone is for sure top 10, no shame in that, but it might be a stretch to say he is in the top 5.

    Defensively, A-Gone is at least average, while Miggy is pretty awful (can't believe they want him at third).

    Miggy is just the better ball player.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 01-29-2012 at 09:11 AM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortDetroit View Post
    Overall Fenway is a top offensive park (top 5), regardless of if it suppresses homers or not.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...rian-gonzalez/



    http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb...ory?id=4673277



    http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/po...-bat-in-fenway



    My only point is that he doesn't have the excuse that he's playing in an extreme pitchers park anymore because he is out of Petco. And even then, his numbers still do not stack up with Miggy across the board. Miggy had a slightly higher batting average, significantly higher OBP (+.038) and SL% (+.038), and hence a better OPS (+.076).
    Fenway Park is not a good home run hitting park. It was 22nd last year in giving up home runs.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/sort/HRFactor

    That probably explains why Gonzalez hit 17 home runs on the road to 10 at home, had a .579 SLG on the road to .516 at home and a .989 OPS at home to a .929 OPS at home.

    I think even when you adjust the offensive statistics for ballparks, Miguel Cabrera is the better hitter. But that's only half the game. Adrian Gonzalez is the much, much, much better defensive player.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MmmRocks View Post
    Fenway Park is not a good home run hitting park. It was 22nd last year in giving up home runs.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/sort/HRFactor

    That probably explains why Gonzalez hit 17 home runs on the road to 10 at home, had a .579 SLG on the road to .516 at home and a .989 OPS at home to a .929 OPS at home.

    I think even when you adjust the offensive statistics for ballparks, Miguel Cabrera is the better hitter. But that's only half the game. Adrian Gonzalez is the much, much, much better defensive player.
    Lol. You take the defense then. I'll take the better hitter when comparing 1st baseman.

    Cabrera pretty much smokes Gonzalez in all major hitting categories.
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by StriveGreatness View Post
    Lol. You take the defense then. I'll take the better hitter when comparing 1st baseman.

    Cabrera pretty much smokes Gonzalez in all major hitting categories.
    Offense is more important at 1B then defense for sure, but defense does count, so focusing on hitting only categories doesn't seem representative to express full value, does it?

    2009-11: runs created + runs saved above average (rWAR):

    Miggy---------- Adrian

    127+-2 = 125 : 124+12 = 136
    141+-3 = 144 : 119+06 = 125
    149+-8 = 141 : 135+15 = 150

    All totaled AG is 1 run better over the last 3 years, and wins two of the years. Seems pretty even to me, except:

    AG had a bad shoulder in '10, and left over issues in '11. Outside of that he has no physical or behavior problems that I know of. Miggy has been a massive distraction with his out of control boozing and wife battles. I understand he's all cleaned up - sadly regression among abusers isn't something to count on. He seems to be carrying a couple of extra pounds as well.

    I'll take Gonzalez in probably the best park in the majors for his swing in terms of BA and 2B's (check out his hits charts and his results last year) - it's a bit tough on the HR's, but I'm not too worried about it.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 01-29-2012 at 06:57 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by StriveGreatness View Post
    Lol. You take the defense then. I'll take the better hitter when comparing 1st baseman.

    Cabrera pretty much smokes Gonzalez in all major hitting categories.
    You take the all-bat future DH, I'll take the better all-around player


    Their park adjusted wOBA's the last three years:

    2009
    Cabrera - .406
    Gonzalez - .440

    2010
    Cabrera - .427
    Gonzalez - .414

    2011
    Cabrera - .442
    Gonzalez - .407

  8. #53
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    Article on this from cbssportsline.com

    http://eye-on-baseball.blogs.cbsspor...97882/34490826
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortDetroit View Post
    Article on this from cbssportsline.com

    http://eye-on-baseball.blogs.cbsspor...97882/34490826
    There are people in this thread that posted far morein terms of data and logic that supports their case (either side) than this casual and weak piece has. Really man, that CBS piece is crud.

    The fact is that in the last 3 seasons they are virtually even - or Agon wins by .33 runs on average per rWAR - which is even.

    Cabrera has had his demons - which he is responsible for - that have sapped his results a bit, and Gonzalez has had the shoulder. The next 5 years ought to tell the tale. Miggy has a more distinguished career before '09 then Gonzalez, but in the here and now (since this isn't the time to nominate for the HOF) they are even as ball players.

    Wasn't it said that the Tigers had Miggy on the block?


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    There are people in this thread that posted far morein terms of data and logic that supports their case (either side) than this casual and weak piece has. Really man, that CBS piece is crud.

    The fact is that in the last 3 seasons they are virtually even - or Agon wins by .33 runs on average per rWAR - which is even.

    Cabrera has had his demons - which he is responsible for - that have sapped his results a bit, and Gonzalez has had the shoulder. The next 5 years ought to tell the tale. Miggy has a more distinguished career before '09 then Gonzalez, but in the here and now (since this isn't the time to nominate for the HOF) they are even as ball players.

    Wasn't it said that the Tigers had Miggy on the block?
    No. I'm not sure where you heard that. That's never been the case.

    There's no doubt Adrian Gonzalez is a better fielder than Miggy but quantifying defense within WAR is extremely unreliable IMO.

    I know you're a homer but the vast majority of baseball people believe that Miggy is the better hitter and a generational type player. There just isn't anything Gonzalez does better than Miggy as a hitter. Since we're talking 1st base here and not SS, give me the better hitter.
    Last edited by FortDetroit; 01-30-2012 at 02:34 PM.
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  11. #56
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    Bags is anything but a homer. The guy will rag on his own team as much as anyone and is hardest on his team's players.

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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortDetroit View Post
    No. I'm not sure where you heard that. That's never been the case.
    I remember some of these pieces, and they bring home just what a wreck Cabrera has been in a Tigers uniform off an on over the years:

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/1...ade-block.html

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/6...-troubled-star

    Dozens of other outlets carried variations on that - including home town Tiger papers. Dombrowski denied them of course, but with such an emotional and troubled young man, why would he come clean unless the deal was actually made?

    There's no doubt Adrian Gonzalez is a better fielder than Miggy but quantifying defense within WAR is extremely unreliable IMO.
    WAR?

    FG's UZR stats on 1B isn't very good I agree. However BR's stats (Sean Smith) are pretty good, that's what I use.

    I know you're a homer but the vast majority of baseball people believe that Miggy is the better hitter and a generational type player. There just isn't anything Gonzalez does better than Miggy as a hitter. Since we're talking 1st base here and not SS, give me the better hitter.
    A guy who finds massive flaws in Carl Crawford in Boston, Papelbon, Lowell, Nomar, Ortiz, and thinks Jim Rice is everything but a HOF is no homer.

    Gonzalez spent most of his career as a starter in SD which is a backwater. However, he seems to have drawn a huge amount of interest this past year - what with Boston, etc. One can only imagine how well he'll do being in a top line-up finally, and shaking off his shoulder issues.

    Their careers may be about 1/2 over, a little early to be talking career achievements - don't you think? Your SS vs 1B stance fails, because while clearly a 1B is the least important defensive position on the Diamond after a DH and P, Cabrera's piss poor defense has and does hurt him as a player. If they both end up as DH, then I agree, but until then it's just a homer's argument to remove something that favors the other guy. You think that's actually legitimate? Adjusted hitting stats show Cabrera is marginally better then Gonzalez - how you get this generational thing? I can't really say. You need to stand behind Cabrera's crap glove while I batter him for it - because once that's factored in, it's a dead heat - over the past three years.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 01-30-2012 at 05:42 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  13. #58
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    Crazy to think of what this free agent class would have looked like if Adrian had not been traded and signed last off-season

  14. #59
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    First of all Bagwell, you posted a bleacherreport article. That's foul #1. 2nd of all there was never any indication from Tigers' management that the Tigers were looking to trade Cabrera, other than baseless speculation from some reporters. Almost every player in baseball could be traded for the right price and with the Tigers payroll crunch a few years back and Miggy being the Tigers highest paid player of course the media is going to throw his name in the trade block circle. Doesnt mean it was seriously considered or even considered at all though.

    And how has Cabrera been a wreck in a Tigers uniform over the years? He's been the Tigers best hitter since he arrived and one of the best hitters in baseball in that timespan as well. His stupid off the field stuff has never affected his play and there has never been even a hint of his teammates or management having anything but support for the guy as a person and teammate. The Tigers have had nary a problem in the Tigers clubhouse between players/management other than Brandon Inge complaining about getting benched when he is hitting .230 (lol). It's not like Miggy was getting drunk during games like some other team was doing last year.
    Last edited by FortDetroit; 01-30-2012 at 08:50 PM.
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortDetroit View Post
    First of all Bagwell, you posted a bleacherreport article. That's foul #1.
    I had my pick of dozens, go search for yourself. Wait until everyone else see's how lame this critique is when they see my new URL's.

    2nd of all there was never any indication from Tigers' management that the Tigers were looking to trade Cabrera, other than baseless speculation from some reporters.
    And I mentioned that, didn't I? Or does it serve your purposes better to pretend I didn't?

    Almost every player in baseball could be traded for the right price and with the Tigers payroll crunch a few years back and Miggy being the Tigers highest paid player of course the media is going to throw his name in the trade block circle. Doesnt mean it was seriously considered or even considered at all though.
    That's one reason, the other is his issues with alcohol and his wife. Perhaps I have it wrong, but didn't he need counseling for that?

    And how has Cabrera been a wreck in a Tigers uniform over the years?
    Personal behavior, drunken driving, etc. Read it, and explain “He’s a superstar,” right fielder Magglio Ordońez said. “He needs to act like a superstar.”

    Or "Baseball’s goal is not to punish Cabrera, but get him treatment. Cabrera will arrive at spring training, one source said, only after baseball doctors evaluate him and determine that he is “back on the program,” dealing with his issues. He was not at Tigers camp Saturday for the team’s first full workout.

    Maybe he will return in short order, get through the season without an extended absence, produce his usual monster numbers. But what happens next offseason? What happens in five years?"

    Good questions.

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/D...-issues-021811

    How about this latest issue?

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-tigers-cabrera

    He didn't change did he, may not be allowed to travel to Canada to play games....

    His stupid off the field stuff has never affected his play and there has never been even a hint of his teammates or management having anything but support for the guy as a person and teammate.
    Are you in the clubhouse or players minds? Then I don't accept your opinion. Wouldn't it be better if he conducted himself like a professional instead of angry drunk?

    It's not like Miggy was getting drunk during games like some other team was doing last year.
    Nice try trying to spread the mud around... we are talking about Miggy and Gonzalez. I can see MIggy is real committed to his team and his sobriety I can see...

    Interestingly I named my elder son after Al Kaline. Cabrera is a long way down from that as a human and a teammate. It's going to show up in losing it sooner then he should have, or missing games, or being put away for treatment or criminal behavior.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 01-30-2012 at 09:42 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

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