Yeah but, who has the most RBI?
Yeah but, who has the most RBI?
For the last three years (because I don't think work prior to that is relevant to a discussion about who is better today. If you are asking about who has a better career it's different information)
As far as moving forward, give me Miggy.
Miggy - .422 wOBA, 163 wRC+
A-Gone - .396 wOBA, 151 wRC+
And honestly, Miggy has also had a better career.
A-Gone has yet to have a season superior to Miggy, park adjusted and not park adjusted (MAYBE 2009, and I wouldn't bet my first born that it was a better season and it was 3 years ago). A-Gone is better defensively, but that doesn't mean much at first base.
Give me Miggy
I have always liked A-Gone, a good, under the radar player for a long time that us stat heads loved. But Miggy is potentially the best hitter in the game right now, and is easily in the top 5. A-Gone is for sure top 10, no shame in that, but it might be a stretch to say he is in the top 5.
Defensively, A-Gone is at least average, while Miggy is pretty awful (can't believe they want him at third).
Miggy is just the better ball player.
Last edited by Jeffy25; 01-29-2012 at 10:11 AM.
That probably explains why Gonzalez hit 17 home runs on the road to 10 at home, had a .579 SLG on the road to .516 at home and a .989 OPS at home to a .929 OPS at home.
I think even when you adjust the offensive statistics for ballparks, Miguel Cabrera is the better hitter. But that's only half the game. Adrian Gonzalez is the much, much, much better defensive player.
2009-11: runs created + runs saved above average (rWAR):
127+-2 = 125 : 124+12 = 136
141+-3 = 144 : 119+06 = 125
149+-8 = 141 : 135+15 = 150
All totaled AG is 1 run better over the last 3 years, and wins two of the years. Seems pretty even to me, except:
AG had a bad shoulder in '10, and left over issues in '11. Outside of that he has no physical or behavior problems that I know of. Miggy has been a massive distraction with his out of control boozing and wife battles. I understand he's all cleaned up - sadly regression among abusers isn't something to count on. He seems to be carrying a couple of extra pounds as well.
I'll take Gonzalez in probably the best park in the majors for his swing in terms of BA and 2B's (check out his hits charts and his results last year) - it's a bit tough on the HR's, but I'm not too worried about it.
Last edited by bagwell368; 01-29-2012 at 07:57 PM.
Article on this from cbssportsline.com
2013 Adopt-A-Lion: Nick Fairley
The fact is that in the last 3 seasons they are virtually even - or Agon wins by .33 runs on average per rWAR - which is even.
Cabrera has had his demons - which he is responsible for - that have sapped his results a bit, and Gonzalez has had the shoulder. The next 5 years ought to tell the tale. Miggy has a more distinguished career before '09 then Gonzalez, but in the here and now (since this isn't the time to nominate for the HOF) they are even as ball players.
Wasn't it said that the Tigers had Miggy on the block?
There's no doubt Adrian Gonzalez is a better fielder than Miggy but quantifying defense within WAR is extremely unreliable IMO.
I know you're a homer but the vast majority of baseball people believe that Miggy is the better hitter and a generational type player. There just isn't anything Gonzalez does better than Miggy as a hitter. Since we're talking 1st base here and not SS, give me the better hitter.
Last edited by FortDetroit; 01-30-2012 at 03:34 PM.
2013 Adopt-A-Lion: Nick Fairley
Bags is anything but a homer. The guy will rag on his own team as much as anyone and is hardest on his team's players.
BRING BARRETT TO CAROLINA, GETTLEMAN!
MMA FIGHTERS: WERDUM, JONES, SONNEN, MAYHEM, BELFORT, HENDRICKS, MAYNARD, ALDO, WINELAND
Dozens of other outlets carried variations on that - including home town Tiger papers. Dombrowski denied them of course, but with such an emotional and troubled young man, why would he come clean unless the deal was actually made?
WAR?There's no doubt Adrian Gonzalez is a better fielder than Miggy but quantifying defense within WAR is extremely unreliable IMO.
FG's UZR stats on 1B isn't very good I agree. However BR's stats (Sean Smith) are pretty good, that's what I use.
A guy who finds massive flaws in Carl Crawford in Boston, Papelbon, Lowell, Nomar, Ortiz, and thinks Jim Rice is everything but a HOF is no homer.I know you're a homer but the vast majority of baseball people believe that Miggy is the better hitter and a generational type player. There just isn't anything Gonzalez does better than Miggy as a hitter. Since we're talking 1st base here and not SS, give me the better hitter.
Gonzalez spent most of his career as a starter in SD which is a backwater. However, he seems to have drawn a huge amount of interest this past year - what with Boston, etc. One can only imagine how well he'll do being in a top line-up finally, and shaking off his shoulder issues.
Their careers may be about 1/2 over, a little early to be talking career achievements - don't you think? Your SS vs 1B stance fails, because while clearly a 1B is the least important defensive position on the Diamond after a DH and P, Cabrera's piss poor defense has and does hurt him as a player. If they both end up as DH, then I agree, but until then it's just a homer's argument to remove something that favors the other guy. You think that's actually legitimate? Adjusted hitting stats show Cabrera is marginally better then Gonzalez - how you get this generational thing? I can't really say. You need to stand behind Cabrera's crap glove while I batter him for it - because once that's factored in, it's a dead heat - over the past three years.
Last edited by bagwell368; 01-30-2012 at 06:42 PM.
Crazy to think of what this free agent class would have looked like if Adrian had not been traded and signed last off-season
First of all Bagwell, you posted a bleacherreport article. That's foul #1. 2nd of all there was never any indication from Tigers' management that the Tigers were looking to trade Cabrera, other than baseless speculation from some reporters. Almost every player in baseball could be traded for the right price and with the Tigers payroll crunch a few years back and Miggy being the Tigers highest paid player of course the media is going to throw his name in the trade block circle. Doesnt mean it was seriously considered or even considered at all though.
And how has Cabrera been a wreck in a Tigers uniform over the years? He's been the Tigers best hitter since he arrived and one of the best hitters in baseball in that timespan as well. His stupid off the field stuff has never affected his play and there has never been even a hint of his teammates or management having anything but support for the guy as a person and teammate. The Tigers have had nary a problem in the Tigers clubhouse between players/management other than Brandon Inge complaining about getting benched when he is hitting .230 (lol). It's not like Miggy was getting drunk during games like some other team was doing last year.
Last edited by FortDetroit; 01-30-2012 at 09:50 PM.
2013 Adopt-A-Lion: Nick Fairley
And I mentioned that, didn't I? Or does it serve your purposes better to pretend I didn't?2nd of all there was never any indication from Tigers' management that the Tigers were looking to trade Cabrera, other than baseless speculation from some reporters.
That's one reason, the other is his issues with alcohol and his wife. Perhaps I have it wrong, but didn't he need counseling for that?Almost every player in baseball could be traded for the right price and with the Tigers payroll crunch a few years back and Miggy being the Tigers highest paid player of course the media is going to throw his name in the trade block circle. Doesnt mean it was seriously considered or even considered at all though.
Personal behavior, drunken driving, etc. Read it, and explain “He’s a superstar,” right fielder Magglio Ordoņez said. “He needs to act like a superstar.”And how has Cabrera been a wreck in a Tigers uniform over the years?
Or "Baseball’s goal is not to punish Cabrera, but get him treatment. Cabrera will arrive at spring training, one source said, only after baseball doctors evaluate him and determine that he is “back on the program,” dealing with his issues. He was not at Tigers camp Saturday for the team’s first full workout.
Maybe he will return in short order, get through the season without an extended absence, produce his usual monster numbers. But what happens next offseason? What happens in five years?"
How about this latest issue?
He didn't change did he, may not be allowed to travel to Canada to play games....
Are you in the clubhouse or players minds? Then I don't accept your opinion. Wouldn't it be better if he conducted himself like a professional instead of angry drunk?His stupid off the field stuff has never affected his play and there has never been even a hint of his teammates or management having anything but support for the guy as a person and teammate.
Nice try trying to spread the mud around... we are talking about Miggy and Gonzalez. I can see MIggy is real committed to his team and his sobriety I can see...It's not like Miggy was getting drunk during games like some other team was doing last year.
Interestingly I named my elder son after Al Kaline. Cabrera is a long way down from that as a human and a teammate. It's going to show up in losing it sooner then he should have, or missing games, or being put away for treatment or criminal behavior.
Last edited by bagwell368; 01-30-2012 at 10:42 PM.