Adrian Gonzalez vs Miguel Cabrera

[bagwell368]

Miggy's career has been far and away better than A-gon at this point. This is only the second year that Gonzalez has hit over .300. You have to take into account that Miggy has been putting up elite stats for pretty much his whole career.

If I'm looking at this year alone I'd probably take Gonzalez because of the glove and the offense is similar. If I'm taking one player for there career I'm taking Miggy. If i had to choose one player from here on out I'd take Miggy.

Miggy is on his way to a hall of fame career. He is probably the best hitter in the American League at this point. Gonzalez has so much more to prove that he is even on track for Cooperstown.

Batting average? That doesn't count for much here, and check out the park he used to played in, tough. Boston is made for him and we can all see what he does there.

Also Gonzalez isn't carrying 25 lbs of junk in the trunk like Cabrera, which in part explains why Gonzalez is one of the 3-4 best gloves in MLB at 1B,and Cabrera is bottom 6-7. It also means that his career will be shorter then it had to be.

Also Cabrera is a distraction and danger to himself and others with his drinking and assault issues. No thanks.

Gonzalez isn't in the same conversation as Miggy.

Go read post #12, the last 3 years, Gonzalez is clearly the better player. Fenway is clearly tailored to his game better then what Miggy has. Sig bet, next 5 years combined Gonzalez >> Miggy using BR WAR.

3 months in rehab:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4846342

One more slip.....

[jbro732]

Batting average? That doesn't count for much here, and check out the park he used to played in, tough. Boston is made for him and we can all see what he does there.

Also Gonzalez isn't carrying 25 lbs of junk in the trunk like Cabrera, which in part explains why Gonzalez is one of the 3-4 best gloves in MLB at 1B,and Cabrera is bottom 6-7. It also means that his career will be shorter then it had to be.

Also Cabrera is a distraction and danger to himself and others with his drinking and assault issues. No thanks.



Go read post #12, the last 3 years, Gonzalez is clearly the better player. Fenway is clearly tailored to his game better then what Miggy has. Sig bet, next 5 years combined Gonzalez >> Miggy using BR WAR.

3 months in rehab:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4846342

One more slip.....

Miggy hasn't had the advantage of playing in hitters parks either so its an even playing field.

Past 2 years Miggys WAR is higher than Gonzalez.

His career everything trumps Gonzalez.

Players can do what ever they want in there spare time. I don't judge people if they drink. Thats his problem. Doesn't change anything he has done on the field.

[Twitchy]

I don't know why anybody would really care at defense at 1B, especially considering how unreliable it is. Specifically at first, I mean.

Bottom line, past 3 years Miggy has a 422 wOBA compared to Adrian's 396. If we just focus this year, when Adrian's in a hitters park, it's 436 for Cabrera vs 406 for Gonzalez. I'll take the wOBA advantage anyday of the week over whatever the defensive gap is.

Cabrera really broke out towards the end of the year. They were a lot closer earlier on.

[bagwell368]

Past 2 years Miggys WAR is higher than Gonzalez.

Past 3 years (the usual amount used for player comparisons):

BR WAR:

AG: 7.0, 6.0, 6.9
MC: 4.4, 7.2, 7.1

His career everything trumps Gonzalez.

Certainly you must have forgotten fielding. And of course clubhouse and off field emotional instability - I grant - Cabrera dominates.

Players can do what ever they want in there spare time. I don't judge people if they drink. Thats his problem. Doesn't change anything he has done on the field.

Really? So when Miggy goes and misses 1/2 a season by doing time for drunk driving, or spousal abuse, or has to dry out - that's OK w/ you? Very generous spirit indeed.

Sorry, but maggots in life are maggots in the clubhouse too. You like him, you keep him.

[bagwell368]

I don't know why anybody would really care at defense at 1B, especially considering how unreliable it is. Specifically at first, I mean.

By all means toss out UZR - and use Sean Smith or your eyes. Either way, Cabrera is in the bottom 25% of 1B, and Gonzalez in the top 25%. Does any serious poster here disagree with that assessment? 1B isn't a key defensive position, but all things being equal do you want a very good one, or a poor one? Even if the bad fielder averages an extra 10 RC a year, it's a question. Toss in personal issues of several types vs. nothing.... too subjective? Can't make all judgements on a stat sheet, no matter how good the stats are (in today's judgement).

Also given when they each hit the Majors, and the physical changes they have gone through I have more concern that Miggy's birthdate is fudged, and he either uses enhancements or can't stay away from friend foods.

And of course he is a train wreck on a personal level.

Next 5 years which is really what core years they both have left, I'll be happy to do a sig bet about who is more productive.

As for wOBA. Gonzalez played with a weak shoulder last year and this year (new league and very little ST as well). Cabrera just played 25-35 lbs overweight.... I guess it's a wash, but one is due to lack of will power/professionalism and the other is not.

[jbro732]

Past 3 years (the usual amount used for player comparisons):



Really? So when Miggy goes and misses 1/2 a season by doing time for drunk driving, or spousal abuse, or has to dry out - that's OK w/ you? Very generous spirit indeed.

Your condemning the guy for something that hasn't happened. Sure he has had issues so many players before him have had issues. He hasn't missed 1/2 a season before so its ridiculous to say that he will.

I'll will stick with reality. Thanks.

[bagwell368]

Your condemning the guy for something that hasn't happened. Sure he has had issues so many players before him have had issues. He hasn't missed 1/2 a season before so its ridiculous to say that he will.

I'll will stick with reality. Thanks.

No, I am giving odds that he is more likely to be a total disaster for his team due to personal defects in the future then Agon - as he has in the past. Predictions based on fact are always more accurate then passion based on fanhood I find.

So you think having a drunken* wife beater* on the team IS good for a team, is that your stance, or is that Miggy can do no wrong, because you are an apologist for him? So what is too far to go for you?

* He's "cured" you say? Check out the recidivism on those two scourges.

[jbro732]

No, I am giving odds that he is more likely to be a total disaster for his team due to personal defects in the future then Agon - as he has in the past. Predictions based on fact are always more accurate then passion based on fanhood I find.

So you think having a drunken* wife beater* on the team IS good for a team, is that your stance, or is that Miggy can do no wrong, because you are an apologist for him? So what is too far to go for you?

* He's "cured" you say? Check out the recidivism on those two scourges.

Listen this is America you can mess up and get a second chance. Apologist for him no appreciative for what he has done in his career yes. His off field issues are exactly what they are OFF FIELD. When debating who is better on the field it shouldn't matter what happens off field.

Look at what the drunken wife beater did this year. He powered his team to the postseason with a less impressive cast than Gonzalez. Look where Gonzalez purist lifestyle got him this year. A ticket to the couch to watch the playoffs. Miggys had a pretty consistent career so far while enduring whatever issues he has been enduring. While a big blow up is possible its not inevitable.

My whole point is you can do whatever you want with your personal life as long as you perform in your professional life. That goes for anything sports, work, school etc. Your personal life shouldn't dictate how you judge someones professional body of work.

I respect your argument that A guy who drinks is more likely to negatively affect his team by either missing time or underperforming. Bostons pitching staff sure did the latter but is it really because of some beer and greasy food. Their routine wasn't scrutinized until they started losing.

[bagwell368]

Listen this is America you can mess up and get a second chance.

He's gotten more then a second chance.

Apologist for him no appreciative for what he has done in his career yes. His off field issues are exactly what they are OFF FIELD. When debating who is better on the field it shouldn't matter what happens off field.

His issues are not all off field. His teammates talk about him. I'm sure he's struck out more then a few times when he was hung over. Failing to see that or excusing it is the definition of an apologist.

It does matter. Ty Cobb, Dick Allen, Manny Ramirez, Rogers Hornsby, Wade Boggs and many more brought a lot of luggage with them. Since it is a team game, and not some 1 on 1 fantasy - the effect of these guys in their teams MUST be factored in.

Look at what the drunken wife beater did this year. He powered his team to the postseason with a less impressive cast than Gonzalez. Look where Gonzalez purist lifestyle got him this year. A ticket to the couch to watch the playoffs.

You actually believe that ends justify the means? I bet you have never hired or fired anyone in your life, or been held responsible for the failings of people you are responsible for. Sounds something like the neat little moral universe that a college student imagines about life.

Miggys had a pretty consistent career so far while enduring whatever issues he has been enduring. While a big blow up is possible its not inevitable.

The man is clearly a talent, but he's had issues, from early weight gain, to rumours of drinking back to his first team. His numbers are not uniform across the years - he had a soft year or two in the mid/late 2000's as I recall.

My whole point is you can do whatever you want with your personal life as long as you perform in your professional life. That goes for anything sports, work, school etc. Your personal life shouldn't dictate how you judge someones professional body of work.

Again, there is no way to assure that his personal and team life have not crossed.

2006: From wiki:

During a July 9 7–6 road loss to the Mets, Cabrera became involved in an altercation with teammate Scott Olsen. With the Marlins trailing 2–0, Mets catcher Paul Lo Duca hit a hard grounder that glanced off Cabrera's glove and rolled into left field, allowing a run to score as Lo Duca raced to second with a double. While the ball glanced off Cabrera's glove, Olsen seemed to believe that Cabrera did not give his full effort to get to the ball. As they came off the field, Olsen could be seen shouting something at Cabrera. A moment later, television cameras showed Cabrera in the crowded dugout reaching past teammates to poke his finger at Olsen as the pitcher walked past him. Olsen tried to jab back at Cabrera, who charged Olsen and tried to kick the pitcher before both players were quickly separated by teammates.[6]

2010-2011 Wiki:

On January 21, 2010, it was reported that Cabrera spent three months in an alcohol abuse treatment center to help him recover from his addiction. He said at the time he had not drunk alcohol since he was taken into custody in October, 2009, and that he would continue his treatment into spring training and the regular season.[29]

Television station WXYZ had obtained a police report from an alleged incident the preceding August, in which Cabrera was involved in a verbal altercation with diners at a restaurant inside the Townsend.[30] Witnesses say Cabrera threatened to fight the group outside and indicated that he had a gun. Restaurant employees asked Cabrera to leave and police were called. There was no weapon in Cabrera's vehicle and Cabrera told team officials he did not own one. Cabrera then told team officials he had been dealing with personal issues and got upset, and the diners ended up dropping the matter.[31]

Cabrera was arrested in Florida on suspicion for drunk driving and resisting arrest on February 16, 2011.


Seems to me Cabrera is getting into trouble more frequently then earlier in his career. If you think the Tigers FO and Management isn't highly concerned about Cabrera staying on the field, and out of trouble - than I do not know what to say. I'm sure if he violates any moral clauses in his still massive deal, he'll be on the curb ASAP.

[jbro732]

You actually believe that ends justify the means? I bet you have never hired or fired anyone in your life, or been held responsible for the failings of people you are responsible for. Sounds something like the neat little moral universe that a college student imagines about life.

Haha. Come on this is an internet forum you really want to challenge me on a personal level? So because I disagree with you I'm automatically some childish college kid who has no responsibility or career? You don't know what I do for a living. Listen I'm not going to brag about what I do for a living or take cheap shots at you. Its the internet. You can have that cheap shot.

Lets keep it to baseball. Discussion over.

[bagwell368]

Haha. Come on this is an internet forum you really want to challenge me on a personal level? So because I disagree with you I'm automatically some childish college kid who has no responsibility or career? You don't know what I do for a living. Listen I'm not going to brag about what I do for a living or take cheap shots at you. Its the internet. You can have that cheap shot.

Lets keep it to baseball. Discussion over.

To me this statement:

"My whole point is you can do whatever you want with your personal life as long as you perform in your professional life. That goes for anything sports, work, school etc. Your personal life shouldn't dictate how you judge someones professional body of work."

is idealistic. Stars of Cabrera's magnitude live in a glass house. He isn't some guy living in a suburb with mortgage, wife, and two kids leading a normal life.

I believe the magnitude of what was in the wiki I posted annihilates the notion of a separation between Cabrera's home and work life.

[Jeffy25]

I'm going Miggy, but it's so close, that I won't argue against anyone that says A-Gone

[F*(&"Next Year"]

Put em together and what do ya get? Miguel Gonzalez!

[catman]

I'll take Cabrera, but agree with Jeffy. Miggy is younger and becoming a much better fielder at 1B. With a bit more protection around him in the line up, he could hit .350 with 40+ homers annually.

[bagwell368]

I'll take Cabrera, but agree with Jeffy. Miggy is younger and becoming a much better fielder at 1B. With a bit more protection around him in the line up, he could hit .350 with 40+ homers annually.

Good luck with a guy prone to domestic abuse and alcohol abuse lasting a long time - in particular carrying at least 30 lbs too much weight.