2nd Greatest PF ever?

[TheLegend]

Karl Malone easily. If not for Jordan and the Bulls, Malone would have two titles.

[JordansBulls]

Why would you mention Hakeem's DPOY awards in this thread if defense doesn't matter?

It matters because it's half the game. IF Dirk had half the defensive impact of Garnett he'd likely have more than 1 MVP and FMVP trophy on his mantle.

Defense matters regardless. Dirk wasn't on the same level of Bird and Magic overall and even so Bird and Magic accolades, stats (especially their peak), and the competition in which they faced (in the Finals in which they won/lost) were all greater than Kobe and Hakeem. That is why they are viewed as better players.

Shaq was no slouch on D he was quite capable not on Dream's or D-Rob's level but certainly a considerable notch above Dirk.

Dirk is a great offensive performer regular season and playoffs and in the playoffs he's a much better rebounder but what else does he bring? Shaq brought rebounding and a level of dominance matched by very few. Bird and Magic are two of the most overall complete offensive players in the history of the game, if they weren't shooting it other aspects of their offensive game would make up for it. Can the same be said for Dirk?

If you don't think D should be considered then that's fine but D is exactly why TD is at #1 and Dirk is being debated around the top 5.

No, my argument is how can you rank KG over them because he was a great defender but did not have much success as the man when those others guys did? I just used the Hakeem example as a point to show that people rank Magic or Bird over Hakeem despite Hakeem being the elite defender.

[Hostetler]

the Mailman

[llemon]

As it is difficult to evaluate Pettit, I'll go with Garnett as my opinion.

[Cal827]

I would take KG in his prime over anybody here. Better defensively, and dragged a team of scrubs within two wins of the NBA finals.

3rd to me is disco Dirk... he showed us a new version of the power forward.

4. Malone
5. Barkley

[Evolution23]

as I said, I think Malone and Barkley's offensive games, and even Dirks to a lesser extent, are more productive than KG's. But the large disparity on the defensive side makes this an easy call for me personally.

yup

[WadeKobe]

Why would that matter? For instance when comparing guys like Magic, Bird, ShaqKobe, Oscar, Hakeem, how is it you can rank Magic and Bird and Shaq over Kobe and Hakeem despite them not being good defenders?

I hear this a lot... and haven't seen enough tape to know, so you might be right, but it doesn't seem to work...

Bird led the league in Defensive WinShares 4x and averaged 4.5 DWS per season, while Kobe averages 3...

Bird = not good defender!?

[Hellcrooner]

Mchale wasn't better than Barkley nor Dirk. You are crazy if you believe that. Hell he was barely better than Gasol.

Machale played BOTH sides of the court, Neither Dirk nor Gasol since you mention him , come close to him in the defensive end....barkley defended a bit more but yet worse than Mchale.

[Swashcuff]

I hear this a lot... and haven't seen enough tape to know, so you might be right, but it doesn't seem to work...

Bird led the league in Defensive WinShares 4x and averaged 4.5 DWS per season, while Kobe averages 3...

Bird = not good defender!?

That in itself shows exactly why when used independently DWS is a horrible metric to ascertain a player's defensive worth.

I mean Bird has more career DWS than Kevin Mchale and that is in no way true. Jason Kidd has more than MJ and Barkley has more than Payton. DWS is highly influenced by DRtg which is highly dependent on team play. Used by itself it is not an accurate measure of a player's defensive worth, and surely doesn't measure how good a defender a player is.

Despite missing 23 games this pass season Carlos Boozer has more DWS than Marc Gasol, Trevor Ariza, Emeka Okafor, Al Horford, Gerald Wallace, Tyson Chandler, Andre Iguodala, Shawn Marion, Luc Mbah a Moute, Serge Ibaka etc etc

By no means should it be used by itself to gauge who good a defender a player is. Best way is to watch some old film and read some articles on Bird's D.

[Swashcuff]

No, my argument is how can you rank KG over them because he was a great defender but did not have much success as the man when those others guys did? I just used the Hakeem example as a point to show that people rank Magic or Bird over Hakeem despite Hakeem being the elite defender.

Because he was a better defensive player?

He also brought more to the table (defense, play making, rebounding) than Dirk. Just because Dirk is a better winner than KG that doesn't necessarily means that Dirk is better. Dirk was more fortunate than KG in terms of who he had around him and also who was at the helm of his organization.

JB please don't say Dirk won a title with no other all star and beat 3 teams with All NBA 1st and 2nd players. You may hold that in high regard but IMO Great Teams who play hard and work well together wins championships not 1st and 2nd team players.

Had KG had such a formidable supporting cast of players during his prime years I am confident that he to would be in the running for a title.

[sventhedog]

tough call between barkley and mchale.

[sventhedog]

i haven't seen pettit and mchale play, are KG and dirk really better?

[Hellcrooner]

i haven't seen pettit and mchale play, are KG and dirk really better?

difficult, pf is one of the most difficult positions to rate all time.

too many greats: (more or less a cronological list of league entry)

Dolph Schayes, Pettit, Thurmond ( played both center and pf),Debuschere, Lucas,Mcginnis, Issell, Hayes,Sikma(pf/c) Mchale, Buck Williams, Barkley, Malone, Chambers, nance,Rodman, Webber, Kg, Tim Duncan, Dirk, Rasheed, Pau Gasol .

all of them can be argued as top 10

[Cal827]

1. Duncan
2/3/4/5 in any order depending on the day - Malone/Barkley/Dirk/KG

KG had the best defense, but had the least amount of success as the man on a team.

To be fair, Dirk has always had an owner willing to spend and add necessary pieces that would benefit him, whether it would be through picks or trades (E.g Dampier, Jamison, Chandler, Terry etc)..

If I'm not mistaken, Minnesota lost a bunch 3 draft picks due to the Joe Smith failed deal (2001, 2002, and I think 2004, but not completely sure), so they couldn't develop talent... they also basically surrounded KG with players that would make the Raptors look good... the only exception would be 2003-2004 when they were able to get Cassell to help, but unfortunately The hall of fame Lakers were too much for them.

I don't see Dirk going anywhere with some of the teams KG had to suffer through in Minnesota.

[GoPacers33]

Yes