Defense

[bsi]

I just think it's hypocritical of Torts to play dump and chase playoff hockey and then leave Avery out of the lineup for a game. Avery was one of the few players that was actually winning races to the puck.

His personality might not fit but his game certainly does.

Avery needs to look no further than the mirror if he wants to find out who's keeping him out of the lineup. He has to be more like Callahan, Dubinsky, Staal, Girardi, Prospal, Prust, and bring it every night, not taking nights off or taking dumb penalties.

[Mr.Wiskers]

Maybe we're not watching the same Ranger games. Avery gets penalized for things others don't get penalized for because he has a bad rep. Avery plays hard, he's watched under a microscope and every little thing gets called against him. I've seen Talbot, Cooke, and even Ovechkin do worse and get away with more. As far as Valentenko, I've read scouting reports about him being an agitator who has a rocket shot and a better shot blocker than Sauer. He's already proven himself in the AHL.

[Mr.Wiskers]

Hockey futures.com says Valentenko plays a physical game that borders on dirty. Had the hardest shot in 07-08.

[Mr.Wiskers]

Sorry it's hockeysfuture.com and it says borders but never crosses dirty play.

[Mr.Wiskers]

I don't know how to cut and paste the scouting report, hope someone can.

[Redfish]

In my view, the primary reason for Avery's performance and consistency shortfalls is hockey is a means to an end for him. By this, I mean he uses the game of hockey to feed a personal life that he cares more about, than the game itself. For the vast majority of players, hockey is everything, and hockey players are "who they are." For Avery, I personally think he uses the game of hockey to fuel his off-ice interests (clothing lines, restaurants, public advocacy, etc..). And, for this reason, his interest level, team dedication, mental focus, and overall commitment is less than a majority of players. He simply has other interests not related to hockey.

I am looking forward to the day he is no longer with the club. I think it is a situation of addition by subtraction, even if it won't happen until the end of this upcoming season.

[Garden Faithful]

In my view, the primary reason for Avery's performance and consistency shortfalls is hockey is a means to an end for him. By this, I mean he uses the game of hockey to feed a personal life that he cares more about, than the game itself. For the vast majority of players, hockey is everything, and hockey players are "who they are." For Avery, I personally think he uses the game of hockey to fuel his off-ice interests (clothing lines, restaurants, public advocacy, etc..). And, for this reason, his interest level, team dedication, mental focus, and overall commitment is less than a majority of players. He simply has other interests not related to hockey.

I am looking forward to the day he is no longer with the club. I think it is a situation of addition by subtraction, even if it won't happen until the end of this upcoming season.

I'm not sure you can really make that argument seeing as he played pro hockey for almost 9 years before he did any of that. I'm not saying he is the greatest or he cares as much or more than others I'm just saying to call this guy out as not caring is a bit much. He doesn't dog it out on the ice by any stretch of the imagination and honestly he hasn't done so much off-ice. He had his internship and that's pretty much it aside from designing a line of men's **** last year. He opened up a bar with some people and a restaurant with hank and he did one ad for gay rights. It's not like he has a reality show. I personally don't get all the hatred for Avery on these forums but I guess to each his own.

[Mr.Wiskers]

I agree totally with Garden Faithful, Avery hasn't been arrested for anything, so what if he has a clothing line, Jeter has a colgne and does commercials for Ford. Companies design clothes and all Avery does is decide whether he wants his name on it or not. You make it sound like he's in his house with a sewing machine making each and every piece of garment or he's cooking in the back or tending bar--please !! All those are investments for him. As I said before he. Plays hard and is watched under a microscope thus penalized more than others. Torts doesn't give him the playing time because of that( every time he's on the ice could be a penalty waiting to happen).

[Redfish]

I'm not sure you can really make that argument seeing as he played pro hockey for almost 9 years before he did any of that. I'm not saying he is the greatest or he cares as much or more than others I'm just saying to call this guy out as not caring is a bit much. He doesn't dog it out on the ice by any stretch of the imagination and honestly he hasn't done so much off-ice. He had his internship and that's pretty much it aside from designing a line of men's **** last year. He opened up a bar with some people and a restaurant with hank and he did one ad for gay rights. It's not like he has a reality show. I personally don't get all the hatred for Avery on these forums but I guess to each his own.

What he did prior to the Rangers is irrelevant to my opinion that as a Ranger, he may have off-ice interests that are more important to him than hockey. That's just an opinion, based on it being the only logical reason to me that he is so inconsistent on the ice; whereas most other players have responded to the challenges presented to them by this coaching staff. This opinion may not be accurate, and I do not at all begrudge Avery for having a life outside of hockey. Frankly, I don't care about his off-ice interests. I care about his on-ice performance and it has been very spotty; undisciplined; streaky; and, overall, just mediocre. He simply isn't contributing much to the club. At nearly a $2mm cap hit, the organization ought to be getting something of tangible value that improves the club. I just don't understand why fans seem to give Avery a pass...."it's the referees....it's the coach..." After so many years in the NHL, perhaps he simply doesn't have much talent? He is a fourth line winger,in my view, and one that wouldn't make the roster on any top 6 teams. Again, Tortorella is trying to construct a cup winning team; not simply a roster. I don't see Avery as being part of that winning team.

If he proves this assessment wrong this season, I'd be very happy, and first to admit my misjudgement. I don't think this will be the case though, unfortunately.

[Redfish]

I agree totally with Garden Faithful, Avery hasn't been arrested for anything, so what if he has a clothing line, Jeter has a colgne and does commercials for Ford. Companies design clothes and all Avery does is decide whether he wants his name on it or not. You make it sound like he's in his house with a sewing machine making each and every piece of garment or he's cooking in the back or tending bar--please !! All those are investments for him. As I said before he. Plays hard and is watched under a microscope thus penalized more than others. Torts doesn't give him the playing time because of that( every time he's on the ice could be a penalty waiting to happen).

This is a reasonable view. And, putting aside whether this is fair, it is reality. All coaches have to deal with reality. If this is reality, then the only conclusion is Avery does not offer much to the team, given the microscope, scrutiny and penalty risk. We may not like it, but again, this is reality. I'd rather spend $2mm on a guy that can consistently put up 30 points each season and be good along the boards and in special situations. Or perform some other role for the team. But, it is fair to ask: what role does Avery serve on this team? I just don't see it.....

[fingerbang]

What he did prior to the Rangers is irrelevant to my opinion that as a Ranger, he may have off-ice interests that are more important to him than hockey. That's just an opinion, based on it being the only logical reason to me that he is so inconsistent on the ice; whereas most other players have responded to the challenges presented to them by this coaching staff. This opinion may not be accurate, and I do not at all begrudge Avery for having a life outside of hockey. Frankly, I don't care about his off-ice interests. I care about his on-ice performance and it has been very spotty; undisciplined; streaky; and, overall, just mediocre. He simply isn't contributing much to the club. At nearly a $2mm cap hit, the organization ought to be getting something of tangible value that improves the club. I just don't understand why fans seem to give Avery a pass...."it's the referees....it's the coach..." After so many years in the NHL, perhaps he simply doesn't have much talent? He is a fourth line winger,in my view, and one that wouldn't make the roster on any top 6 teams. Again, Tortorella is trying to construct a cup winning team; not simply a roster. I don't see Avery as being part of that winning team.

If he proves this assessment wrong this season, I'd be very happy, and first to admit my misjudgement. I don't think this will be the case though, unfortunately.

How long have you been watching Rangers games? Up until Torts **** on his ice time he was amazing for us and a bargain to boot.

Remember all of those statistics comparing our record with Sean in the lineup vs. Sean out of the lineup?

It's funny because this time last season me and some of the other Rangers fans on the site(cough in this thread) were sticking up for him in the main forum. He has one mediocre season and all of a sudden he's a guy that's going to prevent us from being a successful team.

BTW* You say that after so many years maybe he doesn't have any talent? The guy was GREAT for the Rangers four out of his five years.

Don't be that NY sports fan.

[thegame248]

How long have you been watching Rangers games? Up until Torts **** on his ice time he was amazing for us and a bargain to boot.

Remember all of those statistics comparing our record with Sean in the lineup vs. Sean out of the lineup?

It's funny because this time last season me and some of the other Rangers fans on the site(cough in this thread) were sticking up for him in the main forum. He has one mediocre season and all of a sudden he's a guy that's going to prevent us from being a successful team.

BTW* You say that after so many years maybe he doesn't have any talent? The guy was GREAT for the Rangers four out of his five years.

Don't be that NY sports fan.

This ^^. There was also a time that Avery was the top line left wing on a line with Dubinsky and Jagr, and that line was pretty good for us for a little while.

[Redfish]

How long have you been watching Rangers games? Up until Torts **** on his ice time he was amazing for us and a bargain to boot.

Remember all of those statistics comparing our record with Sean in the lineup vs. Sean out of the lineup?

It's funny because this time last season me and some of the other Rangers fans on the site(cough in this thread) were sticking up for him in the main forum. He has one mediocre season and all of a sudden he's a guy that's going to prevent us from being a successful team.

BTW* You say that after so many years maybe he doesn't have any talent? The guy was GREAT for the Rangers four out of his five years.

Don't be that NY sports fan.

Well, for whatever it is worth, I've been watching the Rangers for 33 years now. Amazing? Great? Wow, those are pretty strong adjectives to describe for a player with his performance record.

During his best years with the Rangers, recall that we were a lousy team. It's not hard being a solid player on a lousy team. It is hard being a good player on a good team, and Avery right now is a 4th line player with the Rangers. And, as we get better, I am of the view his role gets more diminished, to the point where he will no longer make our team. I hope he proves me wrong, though. I do believe he can be a solid 4th line winger. But, he just doesn't seem to have learned, after all these seasons in the NHL, how to put together an entire season of playing at a high performance level.

While I think the referees and coach are used as excuses by fans of Avery, let's all attribute his inconsistency to Tortorella, for discussion purposes, ok? I'm fine with the notion that Tortorella is much more valuable to the club than Avery and, if Avery cannot play for Tortorella, then let's move him. An approximate $2mm cap hit should generate much more production than what the team is getting out of Avery.

Anyway, I've probably spent too much time on this. Thanks for the back and forth dialogue around Avery.

[commonsense12]

Here is my take on Avery:

Avery is a very useful player in the right situations. He gets under the skin of opposing players (Brodeur, Kovie just to name a few) and that allows him to draw penalties and take players off their games. Nothing is better then seeing a player go crazy because they respond to Avery's antics and end up in the penalty box. We score a PP goal and that player loses their minds, essentially checking out of the game and allowing us to get the win. He will also put in a goal and occasionally throw down with someone. Def not bad for a little less then 2 mill cap hit.

Here is the problem. The League has caught up with his act and they are basically ignoring so many penalties against him. Basically i think they are sick of him. All that being said because his act has been caught up too, it has hurt us many times in the recent past. Torts sees this and it has cost him in playing time and prob the team in wins (due to his penalties).

Avery to be effective has to play on the line and if the refs dont call anything he is not as useful. In terms of grit and toughness he has been replaced by guys like Prust and now Rupp. So the simple fact is if he is not getting players off their game and drawing penalties he is easily replaceable. Especially on this team because we have so many 3rd and 4th line players.

Personally i like Avery because he has made a big difference in years past but for this upcoming year i think we could be better without him. His points production could be replaced and we have already replaced his fiestiness. The only thing we cant replace is his ability to be a top pest to opposing players, but again if the refs have had enough and it doesnt work, we need to move on from his antics and use his roster spot for someone who can make more of a difference.

[fingerbang]

Well, for whatever it is worth, I've been watching the Rangers for 33 years now. Amazing? Great? Wow, those are pretty strong adjectives to describe for a player with his performance record.

During his best years with the Rangers, recall that we were a lousy team. It's not hard being a solid player on a lousy team. It is hard being a good player on a good team, and Avery right now is a 4th line player with the Rangers. And, as we get better, I am of the view his role gets more diminished, to the point where he will no longer make our team. I hope he proves me wrong, though. I do believe he can be a solid 4th line winger. But, he just doesn't seem to have learned, after all these seasons in the NHL, how to put together an entire season of playing at a high performance level.

While I think the referees and coach are used as excuses by fans of Avery, let's all attribute his inconsistency to Tortorella, for discussion purposes, ok? I'm fine with the notion that Tortorella is much more valuable to the club than Avery and, if Avery cannot play for Tortorella, then let's move him. An approximate $2mm cap hit should generate much more production than what the team is getting out of Avery.

Anyway, I've probably spent too much time on this. Thanks for the back and forth dialogue around Avery.

Avery's minutes have gone from a 16 average to about 11 under Torts. You're not going to get any more production from a 2 million player seeing that kind of ice time. We just gave Mike Rupp 1.5 and he's most likely not going to match Avery's production assuming Torts plays them equally.

For arguments sake, what kind of production do you expect from a guy who's making that kind of money?