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  1. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatch View Post
    That's a reasonable hope that he may have turned a corner after being benched. We all have an outside view of it, but I'd say the guys with the best view of that are the coach and General Manager. Obviously, the guys got great offensive talent but if the coach and GM haven't signed him back yet then I'd say they don't believe he has or will.....the same for all the other teams in the league. No one's come near this guy in two years so he's got a bum rep for a reason.

    And like someone else said, it's not like he's a rookie in this league needing some guidance. He played under Laviolette last year so if he didn't get the hint after the first two benchings why would he now?

    If we get desperate for offense and we can get him cheap then maybe......but we're not desperate right now so I'd say we trust in the evaluation of the coach and gm after having the guy for a season and it would seem fairly obvious he's not any sort of priority for them..........he looks way down on the list of options.......almost in the "well crap ...if we really have to" list.
    I think there is more to it than that. Certainly other teams are skeptical of Zherdev, but I think that's due more to an uncertainly in whether or not they'd be able to control him.

    As it stands right now, the Flyers are just barely in the Stamkos sweepstakes (and the Semin sweepstakes, etc.). Any other moves by the team might put that out of reach. For whatever reason, Holmgren has decided not to shut the door on this (extremely remote) possibility just yet.

    I also think he's been holding out on making a move (signing, trade, whatever) until things become a bit more clear regarding the status of the Flyers prospects. If a player like Matt Read or Sean Couturier were to emerge as a bona-fide NHL ready player, I would imagine Holmgren would want to give Lavs every opportunity to get that player on the ice. Signing Zherdev would make that much more difficult to do.

    I think we'll know a lot more come the end of July/first week of August, once arbitration is over and teams have had a chance to look at their prospects and identify their needs.

    There is also the Bobrovsky issue. I think we'll know a lot more about how this team will look on October 6 once we find out where Bob will be playing next season.

  2. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace23 View Post
    I think there is more to it than that. Certainly other teams are skeptical of Zherdev, but I think that's due more to an uncertainly in whether or not they'd be able to control him.

    As it stands right now, the Flyers are just barely in the Stamkos sweepstakes (and the Semin sweepstakes, etc.). Any other moves by the team might put that out of reach. For whatever reason, Holmgren has decided not to shut the door on this (extremely remote) possibility just yet.

    I also think he's been holding out on making a move (signing, trade, whatever) until things become a bit more clear regarding the status of the Flyers prospects. If a player like Matt Read or Sean Couturier were to emerge as a bona-fide NHL ready player, I would imagine Holmgren would want to give Lavs every opportunity to get that player on the ice. Signing Zherdev would make that much more difficult to do.

    I think we'll know a lot more come the end of July/first week of August, once arbitration is over and teams have had a chance to look at their prospects and identify their needs.

    There is also the Bobrovsky issue. I think we'll know a lot more about how this team will look on October 6 once we find out where Bob will be playing next season.
    well yeah. they can't have couturier on the roster if he's going to be a healthy scratch the majority of the time. the kid needs to play. if he's not going to play the majority of the time with the Flyers, they need to send him back to Drummondville. plain and simple.


    not gonna lie though. i'd rather have couturier up here than zherdev. hell, the kid is already more of a complete player than Z.

  3. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyeaglesman View Post
    well yeah. they can't have couturier on the roster if he's going to be a healthy scratch the majority of the time. the kid needs to play. if he's not going to play the majority of the time with the Flyers, they need to send him back to Drummondville. plain and simple.


    not gonna lie though. i'd rather have couturier up here than zherdev. hell, the kid is already more of a complete player than Z.
    I still say baring any trade/signing our third line should be Shenn, Couturier, Simmonds... How is this line any differnet then JVR-Giroux-Asham from 2 years ago?

    I mean other then the fact Schenn and Couturier better defensively, bigger then Jvr-Giroux combo, Simmonds is much better then Asham, would be better in the cycle game... Should I go on???
    "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view.", "The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master.", "I find your lack of faith disturbing.", "I can feel your anger... it gives you focus, it makes you stronger!"

  4. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace23 View Post
    I think there is more to it than that. Certainly other teams are skeptical of Zherdev, but I think that's due more to an uncertainly in whether or not they'd be able to control him.

    As it stands right now, the Flyers are just barely in the Stamkos sweepstakes (and the Semin sweepstakes, etc.). Any other moves by the team might put that out of reach. For whatever reason, Holmgren has decided not to shut the door on this (extremely remote) possibility just yet.

    I also think he's been holding out on making a move (signing, trade, whatever) until things become a bit more clear regarding the status of the Flyers prospects. If a player like Matt Read or Sean Couturier were to emerge as a bona-fide NHL ready player, I would imagine Holmgren would want to give Lavs every opportunity to get that player on the ice. Signing Zherdev would make that much more difficult to do.

    I think we'll know a lot more come the end of July/first week of August, once arbitration is over and teams have had a chance to look at their prospects and identify their needs.

    There is also the Bobrovsky issue. I think we'll know a lot more about how this team will look on October 6 once we find out where Bob will be playing next season.
    I would agree that all those are great reason to believe that they are thinking as you say.....I would agree that's what they are thinking as well. But all of which is back to the same point......if they perceived Zherdev to be the right fit for the team he'd have been signed already. If one of the kids from camp doesn't win a job (other than Schenn that is) then Zherdev becomes a Plan B. To me there's a big difference between "we want that guy he's turned a corner" and "the young guys didn't win a job so he's a cheap guy with a high upside that we could get lucky on".........

    As far as "controlling" him.......I dunno....why would you want to make more work for your team/team captain? If you don't have the confidence that he's going to come in and do his part the right way I see it as counterproductive to have the other guys watch over him. When you deal with habits and history like that it's just way too simple to say that Pronger and the vets give him a talking to and a gentle threat and he shapes up.

    No one has really said anything bad about the guy last year. The only thing we can go by is how much he was in the coach's dog house........which seemed to be more than a few times. Lavi has HIS style that he wants played so I think he is actually the guy that needs to sign off on whether he wants him or not. I don't have any axe to grind with Zherdev so my feelings are 'if the coach likes him and thinks he can help then I'm all for signing him, if not then I'm fine with not having him too'........

    but it seems logical that the Zherdev's and Drury's etc.....will be lingering around so they can find a similar player if for some reason they don't like the mix of guys in camp for that spot or if they need to make another move.

  5. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyeaglesman View Post
    i have a problem with Z. if he's willing to play for $1 mil for one season, fine. other than that, i wouldn't take a chance.

    cirino, you're point about drilling into his head how hard work = playing time is exactly right. however, this guy has been in the league for more than a while now. he's not a rookie just learning the ins and outs of the league.

    he's a vet at this point, and thus far he has for all intents and purposes refused to earn his playing time. he seems to be of the belief that pure talent can get you by in this league, and especially playing for a coach like Laviolette, where hustle, defense, and hard work is a must for every game, it doesn't work.

    he's lazy and immature, and he's unwilling to change. he simply doesn't fit the culture of this team. i don't think they need guys like that around. they need hard-working, relentless players that will give it their all and do everything for the team. Z is not that guy; never has been.

    if the Flyers get desperate, and they need to bring him back (they aren't; just saying hypothetically), i wouldn't bring him back for any more than $1 mil for 1 year.

    but there's a reason every team passed on him last year when he was placed on waivers, and why he hasn't been signed yet.
    This is a very, very, good post. Very perceptive.

    `

  6. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC1710 View Post
    I'd like for them to bring Zherdev back....I think something turned the switch on in the playoffs.... - - - -
    Yes, it's sad to say - but - he was playing for a contract for the next season.

    `

  7. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Donnie View Post
    I'd take Zherdev back in a heartbeat.
    Zherdev, Drury?

    This is fun. But, are we all forgetting that there is no room on the Forward roster:

    Hartnell - Briere - Voracek
    vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - Jagr
    Talbot - Schenn - Simmonds
    Rinaldo/Sestito - Betts - Nodl


    Some want to move Talbot to the 4th line to make room for another 3rd line forward.

    But, as discussed earlier, Talbot was not signed, at a Cap Hit of 1.8 M, to be moved to the 4th line with the minimal even-strength 4th line minutes.

    His unique skills fit the 3rd line role, especially with Schenn at his side.

    That final 4th line spot is for a "tough-guy". The old heavy weight "enforcer" role is phased out across the league. But a "tough-guy" that can aggitate, fight, and contribute in other ways is needed.

    From a "asset" standpoint, and from a Cap standpoint, most likely we will see Rinaldo or Sestito in that 4th line role. Look for Rinaldo, IMO.

    And, forcing Talbot to the 4th line, and carrying Rinaldo or Sestito as the 13th forward, doesn't work on several levels. To be discussed.

    Point - no room for adding Zherdev or Drury.


    Yes, it ruins our fun and much of our posting, but this Flyers team may be set - - except, unless, the block-buster breaks. Then there will be noteable changes.

    IMO.

    `

  8. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABRO View Post
    Zherdev, Drury?

    This is fun. But, are we all forgetting that there is no room on the Forward roster:

    Hartnell - Briere - Voracek
    vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - JagrTalbot - Schenn - Simmonds
    Rinaldo/Sestito - Betts - Nodl


    Some want to move Talbot to the 4th line to make room for another 3rd line forward.

    But, as discussed earlier, Talbot was not signed, at a Cap Hit of 1.8 M, to be moved to the 4th line with the minimal even-strength 4th line minutes.

    His unique skills fit the 3rd line role, especially with Schenn at his side.

    That final 4th line spot is for a "tough-guy". The old heavy weight "enforcer" role is phased out across the league. But a "tough-guy" that can aggitate, fight, and contribute in other ways is needed.

    From a "asset" standpoint, and from a Cap standpoint, most likely we will see Rinaldo or Sestito in that 4th line role. Look for Rinaldo, IMO.

    And, forcing Talbot to the 4th line, and carrying Rinaldo or Sestito as the 13th forward, doesn't work on several levels. To be discussed.

    Point - no room for adding Zherdev or Drury.


    Yes, it ruins our fun and much of our posting, but this Flyers team may be set - - except, unless, the block-buster breaks. Then there will be noteable changes.

    IMO.

    `
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  9. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABRO View Post
    Zherdev, Drury?

    This is fun. But, are we all forgetting that there is no room on the Forward roster:

    Hartnell - Briere - Voracek
    vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - Jagr
    Talbot - Schenn - Simmonds
    Rinaldo/Sestito - Betts - Nodl


    Some want to move Talbot to the 4th line to make room for another 3rd line forward.

    But, as discussed earlier, Talbot was not signed, at a Cap Hit of 1.8 M, to be moved to the 4th line with the minimal even-strength 4th line minutes.

    His unique skills fit the 3rd line role, especially with Schenn at his side.

    That final 4th line spot is for a "tough-guy". The old heavy weight "enforcer" role is phased out across the league. But a "tough-guy" that can aggitate, fight, and contribute in other ways is needed.

    From a "asset" standpoint, and from a Cap standpoint, most likely we will see Rinaldo or Sestito in that 4th line role. Look for Rinaldo, IMO.

    And, forcing Talbot to the 4th line, and carrying Rinaldo or Sestito as the 13th forward, doesn't work on several levels. To be discussed.

    Point - no room for adding Zherdev or Drury.


    Yes, it ruins our fun and much of our posting, but this Flyers team may be set - - except, unless, the block-buster breaks. Then there will be noteable changes.

    IMO.

    `

    continued, if I may -


    As some have posted, this team, at forward, has an excellent balance of:

    1) veterans and young players (5 and 7)

    2) skill players (Briere, Giroux, Schenn, vanRiemsdyk, Jagr, Voracek)

    3) goal scorers (8 potential 20+)

    4) set-up, assist players (Briere, Giroux, Schenn, vanRiemsdyk, Voracek)

    5) hard forecheckers (Giroux, Hartnell, Talbot, Simmonds, Nodl)

    6) power-forwards (size) (Hartnell, vanRiemsdyk, Jagr, Voracek, Simmonds)

    7) muckers and grinders (size) (Hartnell, Jagr, Voracek, Simmonds)

    8) back-checkers with good defensive responsibility (Giroux, Betts, vanRiemsdyk, Talbot, Simmonds, Nodl)

    9) leadership (Briere, Betts, Talbot, Jagr)


    And they will score goals. It will be exciting.

    A timely repeat of the probable goal scoring:

    Last season the Flyers were 3rd in the NHL in Goals Scored with 256, behind Detroit (257) and league leader Vancouver (258).

    Not including the peripheral players (like 4th liners which will tend to cancel-out), here is the comparison of estimated goals lost and estimated goals gained with this new team:

    Hartnell - Briere - Voracek
    vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - Jagr
    Talbot - Schenn - Simmonds
    Rinaldo/Sestito - Betts - Nodl

    Carle - Pronger
    Timonen - Coburn
    Bartulis - Meszaros
    Lilja

    Bryzgalov
    Bobrovsky


    Goals Lost

    40 Carter
    25 Richards
    20 Leino
    16 Zherdev
    07 Versteeg

    108 Total Goals Lost


    Goals Gained

    25 Jagr (maybe 30)
    20 Voracek, will have much better line-mates Giroux and JVR
    20 Simmonds, with line-mates Schenn and Talbot
    20 Schenn, hardest to predict in his rookie season, but can be prolific
    12 Talbot, playing with Schenn

    05 Giroux additional, from 25 to 30
    09 vanRiemsdyk additional, from 21 (75 games) to 30
    05 Defencemen additional with Power Play greatly improved

    116 Total Goals Gained


    This team will be very good in the goal scoring department. No need to worry.

    No need to speculate on needing another forward for scoring purposes or veteran leadership purposes.

    Don't need Zherdev or Drury, IMO.

    This Flyers' team may be in the NHL top 3 in "goals" again.


    Help - if I'm missing something or am wrong on some things.


    `

  10. #625
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    I am really liking the looks of this roster..I think its an improved roster..If we can gel, man are we going to roll

  11. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABRO View Post
    continued, if I may -


    As some have posted, this team, at forward, has an excellent balance of:

    1) veterans and young players (5 and 7)

    2) skill players (Briere, Giroux, Schenn, vanRiemsdyk, Jagr, Voracek)

    3) goal scorers (8 potential 20+)

    4) set-up, assist players (Briere, Giroux, Schenn, vanRiemsdyk, Voracek)

    5) hard forecheckers (Giroux, Hartnell, Talbot, Simmonds, Nodl)

    6) power-forwards (size) (Hartnell, vanRiemsdyk, Jagr, Voracek, Simmonds)

    7) muckers and grinders (size) (Hartnell, Jagr, Voracek, Simmonds)

    8) back-checkers with good defensive responsibility (Giroux, Betts, vanRiemsdyk, Talbot, Simmonds, Nodl)

    9) leadership (Briere, Betts, Talbot, Jagr)


    And they will score goals. It will be exciting.

    A timely repeat of the probable goal scoring:

    Last season the Flyers were 3rd in the NHL in Goals Scored with 256, behind Detroit (257) and league leader Vancouver (258).

    Not including the peripheral players (like 4th liners which will tend to cancel-out), here is the comparison of estimated goals lost and estimated goals gained with this new team:

    Hartnell - Briere - Voracek
    vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - Jagr
    Talbot - Schenn - Simmonds
    Rinaldo/Sestito - Betts - Nodl

    Carle - Pronger
    Timonen - Coburn
    Bartulis - Meszaros
    Lilja

    Bryzgalov
    Bobrovsky


    Goals Lost

    40 Carter
    25 Richards
    20 Leino
    16 Zherdev
    07 Versteeg

    108 Total Goals Lost


    Goals Gained

    25 Jagr (maybe 30)
    20 Voracek, will have much better line-mates Giroux and JVR
    20 Simmonds, with line-mates Schenn and Talbot
    20 Schenn, hardest to predict in his rookie season, but can be prolific
    12 Talbot, playing with Schenn

    05 Giroux additional, from 25 to 30
    09 vanRiemsdyk additional, from 21 (75 games) to 30
    05 Defencemen additional with Power Play greatly improved

    116 Total Goals Gained


    This team will be very good in the goal scoring department. No need to worry.

    No need to speculate on needing another forward for scoring purposes or veteran leadership purposes.

    Don't need Zherdev or Drury, IMO.

    This Flyers' team may be in the NHL top 3 in "goals" again.


    Help - if I'm missing something or am wrong on some things.


    `
    i have a nagging feeling that couturier is going to compete for a spot, after the prospects camp idk, schenn looked weak along the boards, and that was against a half assed prospects team


    FLYERS/EAGLES

  12. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giroux 4 MVP View Post
    i have a nagging feeling that couturier is going to compete for a spot, after the prospects camp idk, schenn looked weak along the boards, and that was against a half assed prospects team
    hopefully he was just being lazy and laviolette will whip his *** into shape come regular camp.

  13. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giroux 4 MVP View Post
    i have a nagging feeling that couturier is going to compete for a spot, after the prospects camp idk, schenn looked weak along the boards, and that was against a half assed prospects team
    But, in the Camp scrimmage game Schenn scored a hat trick, had an assist, and was the clear standout player.

    And, on the Flyers, he doesn't have to play much along the boards with those 2 line-mates:

    Hartnell - Briere - Voracek
    vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - Jagr
    Talbot - Schenn - Simmonds
    Rinaldo/Sestito - Betts - Nodl


    And, we remember Schenn's profile:

    ASSETS: Has good playmaking ability and a defensive conscience. Leads by example and could be future captain material. Is feisty and ultra-competitive, and will never back down from a challenge.

    FLAWS: Is better at playmaking than he is at goal-scoring. Needs to get stronger to better handle the top big centers in the NHL.

    CAREER POTENTIAL: Potential two-way center with plenty of scoring upside.


    `
    `

  14. #629
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    I will never, EVER truly understand why so many of you are so obsessed with Zherdev. He isn't even THAT skilled. Sure, he has some skills, but we are now the 3rd NHL team that has had problems with him, our coach benched him for most of the season for a reason, and when he FINALLY woke the **** up and played how he should, guess what? He stopped ****ing scoring!! I have absolutely zero interest in bringing that waste of a roster space back to this team.

    AND BTW, Talbot is not going to play wing. He's the first solid faceoff guy we've had in a long, long time. I believe he's our 4th line center and Betts will move to wing. He'll be our top PK guy and might even come into key situations at even strength to win some faceoffs.
    Last edited by maxpower; 07-13-2011 at 11:50 AM.

  15. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giroux 4 MVP View Post
    i have a nagging feeling that couturier is going to compete for a spot, after the prospects camp idk, schenn looked weak along the boards, and that was against a half assed prospects team
    Bro, your obsession with Couturier is clouding your view of Schenn -


    >> During Monday's intersquad scrimmage at the Skate Zone in Voorhees that concluded the camp, Schenn had three goals and one assist as his team won, 6-3. Schenn, who played a total of nine games during the last two seasons with the Kings, kept his hat trick on Monday well in perspective.

    "Anybody likes to score goals, but at the same time it is July," he said. "It is just a start, and I am trying to prove myself and earn a roster spot this year."

    Flyers general manager Paul Holmgren said he was impressed with the physical strength of Schenn.

    "He is a bull on the puck," Holmgren said. "He is strong on the puck and makes good plays." <<

    http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...mmer_camp.html


    Over the weeks, GM Holmgren has virtually said that the 3rd line center spot is Schenn's.

    We will be patient with Couturier.

    September Camp will be interesting.


    `

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