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  1. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by commonsense12 View Post
    Last year we had MCD and Sauer play out of their minds for rookies. We also have MDZ who has a crazy high ceiling and who already showed some brilliance the year before. We also had Rozy who needed to be traded and Gilroy who had some NHL experience. How many rookies do you think torts would play when we were battling for a playoff spot? Lets be honest this is how Eminger got his playing time because he had some NHL experience and Torts was hesitant about going with more rookies.

    i watched every preseason game last year and to be honest i thought Valentenko was going to make the team. He looked that good. He skated well and played with some grit (which torts loves) and on top of that he had a good shot from the point. Him and MCD were the Rangers last dmen cuts last year in camp, that has to say something. Trust me when i say he is NHL ready now and he will be battling for a spot this camp. I wouldnt even be surprised if he won it over MDZ and Erixon.

    To answer your question, Do i think we can get a player that can make a difference with trading our dmen prospects? The answer is hell yes i do. Look at how many trades in the history of the NHL have been for prospects? If you are thinking we are getting a parise or ovechkin for valentenko well then no duh, but a decent player with some upside is very possible. For instance i dont think a Brassard type player who could be on their 3rd line this year but could prob be on 1st or 2nd is out of the question for a prospect plus. A prospect and a draft pick or maybe 2 prospects could get a good player. Why not?

    I think you are just down on these guys and to be honest i dont know why. If you think every prospect should be a homerun well then thats not how the NHL works. You should know being a ranger fan that pure skill doesnt always win out, you need guys who will go in trenches and do the rough stuff. Valentenko and Kundratek play an important role and thats what some NHL teams. Heck i think we are one of them. I would love a guy who could put star players on their ***** when entering our zone.
    I'm not down on them, I'm realistic. I realize you watched the preseason games but that's mostly against other prospects with a few NHL'ers thrown in who aren't throwing the body around or even really trying at all, but just trying to get in shape. I'm basing my opinion on what I saw on the ice in the AHL games, and based on that, he was an average AHL'er, he wouldn't make the team last year, neither of them would, and that's why they never got a shot last year. You say that we can get a good player and point to all the good players that were traded for prospects but you aren't being realistic as to how good Valentenko is, he's not a top grade prospect he's a mediocre prospect, players like McIlrath, Fowler etc can land a big time player, but a mediocre project player like Valentenko isn't gonna land a big fish, his footspeed is not what it should be, he's got a good shot and some size but that's about where it ends. He's destined to be a 3rd pair at best. I've had these same arguments about Potter in the past so I'm not surprised that people aren't agreeing, I just wonder how many people have actually WATCHED him play, instead of just going by what they hear on here and in the NY media?
    Here's hockeyfuture's take on him. He's rated at a 6.5 c level prospect, which means that he's not anything really special. Look around the league and at the teams you think would trade for a guy at this level on their prospects page and you'll find they all have higher level D prospects in the minors, so why trade a top level forward for a mid level prospect? BTW I'm not trying to be negative towards those guys or anyone on here, I'm just saying what I've noticed in games I've watched him play.
    http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/pavel_valentenko

  2. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsi View Post
    I'm not down on them, I'm realistic. I realize you watched the preseason games but that's mostly against other prospects with a few NHL'ers thrown in who aren't throwing the body around or even really trying at all, but just trying to get in shape. I'm basing my opinion on what I saw on the ice in the AHL games, and based on that, he was an average AHL'er, he wouldn't make the team last year, neither of them would, and that's why they never got a shot last year. You say that we can get a good player and point to all the good players that were traded for prospects but you aren't being realistic as to how good Valentenko is, he's not a top grade prospect he's a mediocre prospect, players like McIlrath, Fowler etc can land a big time player, but a mediocre project player like Valentenko isn't gonna land a big fish, his footspeed is not what it should be, he's got a good shot and some size but that's about where it ends. He's destined to be a 3rd pair at best. I've had these same arguments about Potter in the past so I'm not surprised that people aren't agreeing, I just wonder how many people have actually WATCHED him play, instead of just going by what they hear on here and in the NY media?
    Here's hockeyfuture's take on him. He's rated at a 6.5 c level prospect, which means that he's not anything really special. Look around the league and at the teams you think would trade for a guy at this level on their prospects page and you'll find they all have higher level D prospects in the minors, so why trade a top level forward for a mid level prospect? BTW I'm not trying to be negative towards those guys or anyone on here, I'm just saying what I've noticed in games I've watched him play.
    http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/pavel_valentenko
    Now your just hating on him. Your actually saying that just because he looked good in preseason against prospects (who by the way are playing harder then they have ever in their lives to earn an NHL spot), its no big deal? So he can excel against those players but be terrible against all other NHLers...Really? Thats just silly and i feel bad for our prospects who excel. Guys like Thomas and Kreider are screwed.

    Now your also saying only top rated prospects are traded... Really? Actually those top rated prospects are rarely traded, unless its for star players and we are not looking for star players. Teams would much rather trade draft picks with lower rated prospects for players then give up on top level prospects. BTW Girardi was only rated a 6.5 by that very same website and how did that work out? Damn i hate those "mediocre" prospects....

    Btw Valentenko played really well down in Hartford. He was prob the teams best dmen. I think he led the team in +/- and chipped in some pretty decent pt totals for a guy that isnt supposed to score much. No one here he is saying he is the next Lidstrom but he could be a very good servicable dmen just like Girardi is. You think Girardi isnt worth anything on the trade market right now? Teams look for these type of guys. Sounds like you only look at top rated prospects and think everyone else isnt worth anything and thats just wrong. Guys like Valentenko and Kundratek could be pretty good players some day.

    Look the reality is we are not getting a true 1st line player for what we have in cap space. We could get a 2nd or 3rd liner and move him up to 1st or 2nd line to make us that much deeper. You only trade top prospects if you are getting star players in return. Every player i have seen so far suggested in trade packages is not a star player. If you think we are getting a star player for valentenko well duh, but no one is suggesting that. We are looking for a player that can make a difference and that is not out of the question IMO.

  3. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by commonsense12 View Post


    Now your just hating on him. Your actually saying that just because he looked good in preseason against prospects (who by the way are playing harder then they have ever in their lives to earn an NHL spot), its no big deal? So he can excel against those players but be terrible against all other NHLers...Really? Thats just silly and i feel bad for our prospects who excel. Guys like Thomas and Kreider are screwed.

    Now your also saying only top rated prospects are traded... Really? Actually those top rated prospects are rarely traded, unless its for star players and we are not looking for star players. Teams would much rather trade draft picks with lower rated prospects for players then give up on top level prospects. BTW Girardi was only rated a 6.5 by that very same website and how did that work out? Damn i hate those "mediocre" prospects....

    Btw Valentenko played really well down in Hartford. He was prob the teams best dmen. I think he led the team in +/- and chipped in some pretty decent pt totals for a guy that isnt supposed to score much. No one here he is saying he is the next Lidstrom but he could be a very good servicable dmen just like Girardi is. You think Girardi isnt worth anything on the trade market right now? Teams look for these type of guys. Sounds like you only look at top rated prospects and think everyone else isnt worth anything and thats just wrong. Guys like Valentenko and Kundratek could be pretty good players some day.

    Look the reality is we are not getting a true 1st line player for what we have in cap space. We could get a 2nd or 3rd liner and move him up to 1st or 2nd line to make us that much deeper. You only trade top prospects if you are getting star players in return. Every player i have seen so far suggested in trade packages is not a star player. If you think we are getting a star player for valentenko well duh, but no one is suggesting that. We are looking for a player that can make a difference and that is not out of the question IMO.
    I am NOT HATING ON ANYONE......I'm giving my opinion so enough with that talk. I have no reason to hate him, I've never met him and it's rediculous for you to say I'm hating on him, I wish he was the next coming of Staal or Girardi, but he's not IMO. You are putting words in my mouth, or keyboard so to speak. I never said only good prospects get traded, I said only good prospects get traded for 1st and second line players unless they are in a deal packaged with someone of significant better value, and we don't need any more third line players, we're so loaded up with them that some NHL'ers, Christensen or Avery for example are gonna end up in the minors, so adding another 3rd or 4th line player is not what we need. I was also commenting that some players play well in preseason because they are playing against mainly AHL caliber players, it's why some NHL'ers light the lamp like a mad man in preseason and then settle in to be mediocre when they end up in a true NHL game, it's a difference of playing with men and boys, this shouldn't be hard to figure out.
    You were talking about getting Derek Brassard or Evander Kane were you not? It's gonna take a hell of a lot more than Valentenko to get Brassard or Kane. You are saying Valentenko can get a player that can make a difference, well the only type of player that's gonna make a difference on this team is a top line or 2nd line player, adding more third liners to the already overloaded 3rd and 4th lines that we have isn't going to make any difference at all. So while everyone says, "we gotta trade from our position of strength" well our actual position of strength is our 3rd and 4th liners, unless ofcourse we are gonna tear apart the D that we constructed and trade Staal, Girardi, McIlrath, McDonagh,DelZotto or Erixon, and I'm pretty sure nobody wants to trade those guys as that just sets us back, so what can you get with our so called "position of strength"? Another 3rd or 4th liner? No thanks.
    Last edited by bsi; 08-12-2011 at 10:19 PM.

  4. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsi View Post
    I am NOT HATING ON ANYONE......I'm giving my opinion so enough with that talk. I have no reason to hate him, I've never met him and it's rediculous for you to say I'm hating on him, I wish he was the next coming of Staal or Girardi, but he's not IMO. You are putting words in my mouth, or keyboard so to speak. I never said only good prospects get traded, I said only good prospects get traded for 1st and second line players unless they are in a deal packaged with someone of significant better value, and we don't need any more third line players, we're so loaded up with them that some NHL'ers, Christensen or Avery for example are gonna end up in the minors, so adding another 3rd or 4th line player is not what we need. I was also commenting that some players play well in preseason because they are playing against mainly AHL caliber players, it's why some NHL'ers light the lamp like a mad man in preseason and then settle in to be mediocre when they end up in a true NHL game, it's a difference of playing with men and boys, this shouldn't be hard to figure out.
    You were talking about getting Derek Brassard or Evander Kane were you not? It's gonna take a hell of a lot more than Valentenko to get Brassard or Kane. You are saying Valentenko can get a player that can make a difference, well the only type of player that's gonna make a difference on this team is a top line or 2nd line player, adding more third liners to the already overloaded 3rd and 4th lines that we have isn't going to make any difference at all. So while everyone says, "we gotta trade from our position of strength" well our actual position of strength is our 3rd and 4th liners, unless ofcourse we are gonna tear apart the D that we constructed and trade Staal, Girardi, McIlrath, McDonagh,DelZotto or Erixon, and I'm pretty sure nobody wants to trade those guys as that just sets us back, so what can you get with our so called "position of strength"? Another 3rd or 4th liner? No thanks.
    You called him a mediocre prospect, thats not exactly complimenting him. To even insinuate that he could be a player that lights it up in preseason isnt complimentary. He hasnt even played an NHL game and you think that could be the case lol. Sorry that isnt exactly giving the kid a chance and could be thought of as hating. BTW 6.5 is not terrible for prospects, to me thats above average. They have a chance to turn into some pretty good players. I dont see how thats mediocre.

    I also did not say what we would have to give up in any of those deals (Kane, Brassard weiss etc) those were based on cap space. BTW kane has the potential to be a top line guy but is not there yet. I also said kane probably wouldnt happen. Brassard is basically in the same category as AA. Pick and a prospect (valentenko etc) would be pretty fair for a player like Brassard if columbus was looking to move him. I said we could use some of our dmen depth to help out in acquiring some players. Lets also be honest most of the big deals that went down recently were average prospects and good draft picks. Good prospects rarely get traded unless its for a superstar (M. Richards) and thats not even a given. Look at the Penner or Kovie deals for example, draft picks and midlevel prospects got them done.

    You also have to think that players like a Valentenko or Kundratek could be packaged for a better player. For instance if we packaged Christ and a dman prospect to Montreal for Kostitsyn, that would prob get it done. I am not saying i would do that trade but its prob a fair price all things considered. A trade just doesnt have to be Valentenko or Kundratek etc for whatever player.

    On a side note i do like Kostitsyn but would try to trade Avery, Christ and maybe a lower level draft pick for him and save prospects. Avery gives them that 3rd line grit player and Christ fills their 3rd line center position and all for a unhappy player fighting with the coach and who will prob never play for MTL again, (if news reports out of canada are correct).

  5. #560
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    BTW anyone is curious the situation in montreal with Kostitsyn has made many people unhappy

    http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...626/story.html

    Also if you go into their forum some fans think they are looking for a 3rd or 4th line center. They even mentioned christ i believe and if the rumors are true he could be moved in a package. I would try and include Avery. Salaries work and it would be great for us. Kostitsyn could clash with torts but he also could be that gritty scoring LW that could fit well on the Richards GAbs line. I dunno just a thought

  6. #561
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    i think you two basically understand the points the other is making but are missing some elements.....me and common bother understand that valentenko and kondratek would be INCLUDED with something else to get someone decent that can play a second line role

    props to sfgiants5518

    GO 'CUSE

  7. #562
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    Can it be? Is this team close to being "fixed" ?

    This upcoming training camp may have the fewest question marks and open roster spots than quite a long time. Frankly, I don't remember when the lineup has been so secure and defined at this point during the preseason.

    We are basically unsure about the #6 defense position, and which two of three, amongst MZA, Avery and Christenson, make the team as a starter and extra forward.

    That is certainly a very good sign for the organization but I am sure Sather is working for the potential to secure a true, and proven, top line left wing. It may not happen this season, but I am sure he is planting seeds.

    LGR!

  8. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redfish View Post
    Can it be? Is this team close to being "fixed" ?

    This upcoming training camp may have the fewest question marks and open roster spots than quite a long time. Frankly, I don't remember when the lineup has been so secure and defined at this point during the preseason.

    We are basically unsure about the #6 defense position, and which two of three, amongst MZA, Avery and Christenson, make the team as a starter and extra forward.

    That is certainly a very good sign for the organization but I am sure Sather is working for the potential to secure a true, and proven, top line left wing. It may not happen this season, but I am sure he is planting seeds.

    LGR!
    There is an outside possibility that Thomas makes the team, and the reason I say that is that it's possible that he could be a very useful tool on our new powerplay.

  9. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsi View Post
    There is an outside possibility that Thomas makes the team, and the reason I say that is that it's possible that he could be a very useful tool on our new powerplay.
    For this very reason, I was thinking MZA would have an otherwise higher chance at securing a role with the club as well. Other than Richards, he is head and shoulders above the rest of the team in terms of passing skills and on ice vision (Stepan is close on the latter).

    Heck, if Thomas or any other prospect (e.g., McIlrath) prove they can handle playing in the NHL, by all means, let's get them as much ice time as practical.

    I think the Traverse City tournament may show us which prospects are truly ready to press for a spot with the team this season. I am really pulling for McIlrath.

  10. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redfish View Post
    For this very reason, I was thinking MZA would have an otherwise higher chance at securing a role with the club as well. Other than Richards, he is head and shoulders above the rest of the team in terms of passing skills and on ice vision (Stepan is close on the latter).

    Heck, if Thomas or any other prospect (e.g., McIlrath) prove they can handle playing in the NHL, by all means, let's get them as much ice time as practical.

    I think the Traverse City tournament may show us which prospects are truly ready to press for a spot with the team this season. I am really pulling for McIlrath.
    would great to see him do well, though i would hazzard a guess that they will ask him to at least start in the ahl to get him some pro experience... if he makes the team this year it will be likely how mcdonough did it with a midseason callup... iwould love thomas to come out flying also, he really could be the guy(otehr than erixon) so lock himself a place. and as bsi said he could be very dangerous on the PP, i hear he has shiwn some bright spots in the wjc practices, btu yes traverse tourney is the next big marker for these guys.

    also redfish i share your optimism about the team this year, i think apart from one spot, and assuming knowone has a horrible slump this year, we are sailing in the right direction as far as the make up of the team and the development of the young core and prospects go.. its just a matter of building on the chemistry of the guys we have and keeping the developmental side of the team on course and on the up.

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