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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    I think there can be a causal link. But I don't really care. And most of the time they claim a causal link, there ****ing isn't one. They tried to pin Columbine on Marilyn Manson.

    A crazy person can be inspired to commit some act for all sorts of reasons.
    ok, so just for clarification sake, given the sort of scale I set up, you would put the potential for a causul link somewhere in the substantially no link to very small link area?
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    ok, so just for clarification sake, given the sort of scale I set up, you would put the potential for a causul link somewhere in the substantially no link to very small link area?
    I'm not sure what we're talking about.

    If we're talking about the Giffords shooting and Palin's rhetoric, I'd say no link exists between the two.

    But can expression sometimes cause violence? Sure. John Hinckley Jr. was inspired by Taxi Driver. He shot Reagan to impress Jodie Foster. Jodie Foster was the cause of an attempted assassination. Now, the guy probably would have gone off at some point, but maybe not at Reagan.

  3. #18
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    Both sides have *******s who will do or say anything. All it makes them are *******s, and it has no bearing to me on the real discussion. All it means is that you can be a liberal *******, or a conservative *******.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    I'm not sure what we're talking about.

    If we're talking about the Giffords shooting and Palin's rhetoric, I'd say no link exists between the two.

    But can expression sometimes cause violence? Sure. John Hinckley Jr. was inspired by Taxi Driver. He shot Reagan to impress Jodie Foster. Jodie Foster was the cause of an attempted assassination. Now, the guy probably would have gone off at some point, but maybe not at Reagan.
    I am not speaking to a specific example. At least not yet. I am approaching this in a far more general way.

    At this point, the only thing I see you accepting a direct and proximate link is for crazy people. And at that only some of them. So, back to my question for clarity sake, beyond a few crazy people, are there any other situations where you would see a causal link between rhetoric and behavior?
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    I am not speaking to a specific example. At least not yet. I am approaching this in a far more general way.

    At this point, the only thing I see you accepting a direct and proximate link is for crazy people. And at that only some of them. So, back to my question for clarity sake, beyond a few crazy people, are there any other situations where you would see a causal link between rhetoric and behavior?
    If I'm going to find a link, I'm gonna need specifics.

    If you have a point to make, make it.

    If I were to make a general point, I would say that even if you find a link between rhetoric and action, that does not matter. That does not automatically imply that the rhetoric is wrong, or in need of censorship. So, this search for theoretical links seems pointless to me.

    And, this story proves that the people who made those arguments about Sarah Palin and the Tea Party are liars. They do not fear for the safety of the governor of Wisconsin. The argument was completely convenient, and their goal (as it always is) is to silence speech they personally dislike. The people who burn books claim the books are dangerous.
    Last edited by gcoll; 02-19-2011 at 06:10 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    If I'm going to find a link, I'm gonna need specifics.

    If you have a point to make, make it.

    If I were to make a general point, I would say that even if you find a link between rhetoric and action, that does not matter. That does not automatically imply that the rhetoric is wrong, or in need of censorship. So, this search for theoretical links seems pointless to me.

    And, this story proves that the people who made those arguments about Sarah Palin and the Tea Party are liars. They do not fear for the safety of the governor of Wisconsin. The argument was completely convenient, and their goal (as it always is) is to silence speech they personally dislike. The people who burn books claim the books are dangerous.
    It has been my experience that in order to find agreement, or at the minimum understand where the difference really is, it is better to find out at what level the agreement can be made, or at worst, find out where the root of the disagreement is. Therefor, in order to achieve either of these two related goals I am just doing some fact finding.

    Now a point may or may not be made, but not until we know exactly where the divergence exists. To this point, I have just attempted to find out where you and I fail to agree. Before looking for me to make a point, how about just humoring me to the point that I can find this out.

    Secondly, as far as people being liars, beyond the video you posted, I have to tell you I have not seen a lot of signs like those in the news, have you?

    Finally, as a completely unrelated point, as I was leaving your fine state, just before exiting it on I10 into California, there was a stop asking for citizenship. Do you happen to know if that was ICE or some other federal agency, or was that an Arizona agency?
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  7. #22
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    Well. I don't know how I feel about the general link between rhetoric and action. I suppose it depends on the rhetoric, and the action, so it will be a very fact specific endeavor. I tend to be very lenient with the type of rhetoric I consider ok.

    Even in the most often cited examples of lynching and the rise of the Nazis, I don't put the blame on the rhetoric. With the Nazis it was a massive amount of people buying into a corrupt ideology. Hitler's speaking ability helped, but you're not gonna get that many people to go along with you if they don't agree on some level with the underlying philosophy. The same with the lynching.

    As far as the people at the Cali-Arizona border, I'm not sure exactly who they're with. My guess would be that they're with ICE, but I just don't know. Did they ask if you were carrying any fruit?

    And, about the news. I've seen a few of those signs on the news. What I haven't seen too much on the news, is the impugning of the protesters motives, or any tallies of their race, or anything like that. Apart from Fox News, of course. But, that highlights why Fox News is good to have.
    Last edited by gcoll; 02-19-2011 at 08:39 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    Well. I don't know how I feel about the general link between rhetoric and action. I suppose it depends on the rhetoric, and the action, so it will be a very fact specific endeavor. I tend to be very lenient with the type of rhetoric I consider ok.

    Even in the most often cited examples of lynching and the rise of the Nazis, I don't put the blame on the rhetoric. With the Nazis it was a massive amount of people buying into a corrupt ideology. Hitler's speaking ability helped, but you're not gonna get that many people to go along with you if they don't agree on some level with the underlying philosophy. The same with the lynching.

    As far as the people at the Cali-Arizona border, I'm not sure exactly who they're with. My guess would be that they're with ICE, but I just don't know. Did they ask if you were carrying any fruit?

    And, about the news. I've seen a few of those signs on the news. What I haven't seen too much on the news, is the impugning of the protesters motives, or any tallies of their race, or anything like that. Apart from Fox News, of course. But, that highlights why Fox News is good to have.
    I understand that in the specific, one is looking for proof, which, depending on the level of proof required is easier or harder to provide, I am looking for something different. I find that people are more willing to believe in the causul connection between rhetoric and action, when, they feel that the rhetoric is something they agree with, and the action is something they feel comfortable with. An example might be someone making an impassioned plea for contributions to save a local landmark. But for the rhetoric, the contributions would not have been made, they were made, the piece of history is saved, all is good with the world. An easily proven link exists. But, proof is not the issue, what is the issue is the existence of the causul link.

    This was not the agricultural stop inside California. The only question asked was if I were a citizen of the United States. What was so odd to me was the placement (no where near the border and to an adjoining border state) and the question. If I were trying to get away with something, assuming was not legally in the country, I would still have answered in the affirmative.

    A better question about what is happening in Wisconsin that I have not seen addressed is if for the sake of argument, one accepts the Governors side on a philosophical basis about the public employee unions having to give up their roles (because in fact, the unions have accepted the cutbacks on the states contributions and the members having to make up the difference) then why were the police and fire fighters exempted? My guess is that those two unions have in the past voted Republican, while the others have tended to vote Democratic, making the entire thing a naked power grab. Strangely, keeping it the spirit of this thread, both sides do not try to decertify unions based on political attitude.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  9. #24
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    Well, my guess would be ICE, but I don't know.

    With the causal connection. Again. Depends on the facts. I was dealing with it more in the idea of killing someone, not just contributing some money to some cause. If my friend recommends me a good burger place, I might stop in. OMG rhetoric led to action! I wasn't thinking about trivial stuff like that.

    With the firefighters and police officers. I have seen that point raised a couple times. I think it has been responded to, but I haven't been paying much attention to the nuts and bolts.

    My interest with this story has been in the media's reaction. There's a lot of nice parallels that help highlight hypocrisy. Just watch how the issue is framed. It's quite remarkable. I think that may be another reason Fox News inspires such anger. Liberals have been used to the media framing the issue in their favor for decades.
    Last edited by gcoll; 02-20-2011 at 08:04 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    This type of rhetoric goes on at protests all the time. As I have said over and over again.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=71gsnLfsbbM

    My favorite sign is "Why do Republicans Hate People"

    "Both sides do it" is a lame defense for the rhetoric, but I constantly have to argue with people who insist that the left does not engage in the sort of thing Tea Partiers do.
    Conservatives have been scrambling to try to claim that the kind of hate they've directed at the left the last 2+ years is typical by sourcing random liberal bloggers and claiming that "both sides do it". They've conveniently ignoring, however, that it's only members of the Republican party who make such hateful claims as the black president isn't a legal citizen, he's the anti-christ, etc.

    One lone wolf liberal blogger being hateful isn't the same as actual member of a major political party.

  11. #26
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    This is simple in my opinion... both sides do it... one side does it worse (meaning more often, and with nastier rhetoric)... the same side also does it better (meaning more effectively winning over voters with it).

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoon
    man with hair like fire can destroy souls with a twitch of his thighs.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    Well, my guess would be ICE, but I don't know.

    With the causal connection. Again. Depends on the facts. I was dealing with it more in the idea of killing someone, not just contributing some money to some cause. If my friend recommends me a good burger place, I might stop in. OMG rhetoric led to action! I wasn't thinking about trivial stuff like that.

    With the firefighters and police officers. I have seen that point raised a couple times. I think it has been responded to, but I haven't been paying much attention to the nuts and bolts.

    My interest with this story has been in the media's reaction. There's a lot of nice parallels that help highlight hypocrisy. Just watch how the issue is framed. It's quite remarkable. I think that may be another reason Fox News inspires such anger. Liberals have been used to the media framing the issue in their favor for decades.
    Thanks for minimizing my point, but, that you do indeed believe that there is in fact strong causal connections between rhetoric and actions, that indeed your disbelief is based in proving them, not in their likely existence.

    In reference to your direct interest in the story and how it is framed, I agree with you that it is interesting that now that the unions have all agreed to the monetary concessions, and the governor continues his quest to essentially decertify all but unions that tend to vote Republican, all of the networks seem to still frame this as a battle over the budget concessions, when in fact those have been made. It is pure and simple a union busting battle (except of course Republican unions) that the governor is fighting for and still it is framed as a budget question.

    In fact, I would say the reporting has been right wing for not recognizing this fact, and you can concentrate on a few signs to make your point, while I am looking at what strikes me as the larger story. Neither of us knows if the signs in the video you pointed out are in large supply or outliers, therefore, it seems to me to be the little story. Both of us know that the concessions have been made, while the GOP led legislature continues to decertify the non GOP leaning unions, the larger story, and yet, the news keeps pushing the Republican based story line.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by North Country
    Conservatives have been scrambling to try to claim that the kind of hate they've directed at the left the last 2+ years is typical by sourcing random liberal bloggers and claiming that "both sides do it". They've conveniently ignoring, however, that it's only members of the Republican party who make such hateful claims as the black president isn't a legal citizen, he's the anti-christ, etc.

    One lone wolf liberal blogger being hateful isn't the same as actual member of a major political party.
    If the scorn for "right wing rhetoric" was only focused on prominent members of the Republican Party, then you would have a point. But the Tea Party has been one of the main groups critiqued for such rhetoric. So, comparing the rhetoric you'd find at a Tea Party, to the rhetoric you'd find at this union protest (or just about any other union protest for that matter) is perfectly fair.

    But, if you want to make it about members of the actual party establishment. Allan Grayson? Just about anything he said during his time as a Congressman. I recall during the campaign that a few Democratic congressman called John Mccain a war criminal for his actions in Viet Nam. What about the former Vice President of the United States screaming that George Bush betrayed the country? Liberals typically counter this last one with "Bush did betray the country by lying us into war!"

    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver
    In fact, I would say the reporting has been right wing for not recognizing this fact
    Individual facts don't matter too much. It's all about how the issue is framed. Walker is on the defensive. When the Tea Party protests were going on, they were on the defensive.

    And the facts as I understand them is that the sticking point is on collective bargaining for benefits. I don't know what the "decertify" stuff is. And I am not aware of what the Union has put on the table in terms of negotiation.

    About the bias. Can you think of anything besides bias that would lead one to exempt those particular unions? It's the firefighters, state troopers, and police, right?
    Last edited by gcoll; 02-21-2011 at 06:55 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post

    Individual facts don't matter too much. It's all about how the issue is framed. Walker is on the defensive. When the Tea Party protests were going on, they were on the defensive.

    And the facts as I understand them is that the sticking point is on collective bargaining for benefits. I don't know what the "decertify" stuff is. And I am not aware of what the Union has put on the table in terms of negotiation.

    About the bias. Can you think of anything besides bias that would lead one to exempt those particular unions? It's the firefighters, state troopers, and police, right?
    Walker is rather pugnacious for a man on the defense. However, that aside, there are no financial issues to be settled, because the union has in fact conceded to roll back employer (state) contribution to the levels in the proposed legislation. Collective bargaining rights are in fact at issue on a whole host of issues with the sole exception of wages. The fact is that when contracts are negotiated, it is rarely only on wages. To legislate the everything else off the table essentially renders the union to a meaningless position, thereby decertify it.

    About the bias, it is my understanding that the fire fighters and the law enforcement unions tend to vote Republican. If you honestly think that there should be no public employee unions, then, why on earth should these select groups be exempted from the philosophical position, unless, you like their vote.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  15. #30
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    Not gonna lie, I had to google "pugnacious". Good word.

    It is my understanding that Walker had endorsements from a few of those unions. But two of the bigger unions in that field endorsed his opponent.

    I'm not sure how those unions tend to vote. I always thought they went for Democrats like other unions.

    Why would they be exempted apart from bias? Because they're firefighters and policeman. They tend to get more respect. From a purely political standpoint, it's easier to sell this thing if you exempt them. Teachers unions and other state employees are easier opponents.

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