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  1. #16
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    Of course he had WMDs. We, along with other countries, gave him sarin gas, etc. That doesn't excuse George W Bush's excuse to invade in 2003. At that time, the argument was that Saddam was trying to get nuclear weapons, they were an "immediate threat" to us, and were somehow conected to 9/11. All turned out to be false.

    For Al-Janabi's testimony, it's not even a matter that the administration didn't fact-check enough, they were looking for ANY excuse to invade Iraq. In fact, I read on CNN that we already had plans on the table before 9/11 even happened(according to cabinet member Paul O'Neill).

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labgrownmangoat View Post
    I got to agree with you that yes, at some point in the past they had chemical weapons. There is absolutely zero controversy over that point. The whole world acknowledged that the Iraqi government used chemical weapons on the Kurds. . . in 1988.

    The relevant question is whether they had WMDs in 2002. Whether or not there was a "smoking gun" that could become a "mushroom cloud" in 2002 or not. There is no credible evidence now, nor has there ever been that they had WMDs then.

    Curveball, however, was talking about an active nuclear program. His incredible lies were the basis of the talking points used by Bush administration hacks to lie us into a war we never should have entered. There is no excuse for that behavior on the basis of Iraq having WMDs 25 years before, and no excuse for it based on the lies of Curveball.

    As for where those WMDs went, the only supplies of them ever discovered by anyone were destroyed by UN weapons inspectors in the mid-90's. The rest existed only in the heads of those looking for an excuse to invade, or to convince others to invade. There is no mystery here except why we believed these ridiculous lies.
    My only point here is that its like laying minefields in a war, and after the war, just leaving them behind for some farmer or kid to find. I agree with you on the premise for going to war. I'm only saying that we should try to find out where all those old weapons went before some innocent person does.
    Last edited by Patsfan56; 02-17-2011 at 01:01 PM. Reason: entered bold to clarify what I meant

  3. #18
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    That damn Bush and his made up lies about all th......

    Oh wait.....

    I'm gonna hold my breath until many of the liberals that demonized him for "making up stuff" and "lying" apologize.
    lr is cooler than you

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan56 View Post
    My only point here is that its like laying minefields in a war, and after the war, just leaving them behind for some farmer or kid to find. I agree with you on the premise for going to war. I'm only saying that we should try to find out where all those old weapons went before some innocent person does.
    I sympathize with that concern, and could hardly be a bigger proponent of finding and securing WMDs wherever they might be.

    That said, if you check out the link, you'll find that a ton of effort has been spent on trying to locate anything resembling a WMD remaining in Iraq. Lord knows the Bush administration had some very strong incentives to find something, anything, to do with WMDs over there. The UN tried, the US tried several different times in several different ways, and they found little or nothing remaining. This leads me to conclude that there wasn't anything left.

    Let me add that not everyone appears to be as interested in finding or securing loose WMDs. The GOP House's budget slashes 22% from the budget of the highly effective National Nuclear Security Administration (see prior thread here for a list of their largely-unheralded successes).
    Last edited by Labgrownmangoat; 02-17-2011 at 01:26 PM.
    “A riot,” said Martin Luther King, “is the language of the unheard.”

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labgrownmangoat View Post
    I sympathize with that concern, and could hardly be a bigger proponent of finding and securing WMDs wherever they might be.

    That said, if you check out the link, you'll find that a ton of effort has been spent on trying to locate anything resembling a WMD remaining in Iraq. Lord knows the Bush administration had some very strong incentives to find something, anything, to do with WMDs over there. The UN tried, the US tried several different times in several different ways, and they found little or nothing remaining. This leads me to conclude that there wasn't anything left.

    Let me add that not everyone appears to be as interested in finding or securing loose WMDs. The GOP House's budget slashes 22% from the budget of the highly effective National Nuclear Security Administration (see prior thread here for a list of their largely-unheralded successes).
    I know, and I agree. I have spent some time on mine clearing operations, and mine awareness for operations in Bosnia. Its horrifying what armies leave behind, and atrocious for any government to willingly leave something like that out there.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    I wonder which president will have to clean up the mess from when we sided with the dictators in my thread (posted about a week or two ago). When your dad (Bush I) helped create the problem and then you attempt to fix his screw ups i dont know if i can give him or his people (ironically Rumsfeld was involved) any credit.
    Jeb is on the way....

    Quote Originally Posted by LAKERMANIA View Post
    I am no Warhawk, I hated this war, but the only good that came out of all the tragic deaths was that they have a chance to start from scratch, create a democracy in the middle east like Turkey and Israel.. If I were Iraqi, looking at it from their POV, I'd rather start from scratch and make a new democratic government than live under Saddam, so I understand, and if I were Iraqi, would be proud of that lie too

    But I am not an Iraqi, I am an American citizen, and the fact that we got fooled by this guy to go in and take out an entire government with our money angers me.. You can all you want, its true
    It's not our place to decide what's best for them. We don't live there. Only their citizens know what's best. We're seeing that now in Egypt and Tunisia, that the masses can take action.

    We put the man in place to rule their country and then busted in to take him out for reasons that have NOTHING to do with the good of the Iraqi people. Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because we think we know what's best for them?

    He was sold to us as an ally then denounced as a demon. The fact is that we don't know what it's like over there and assuming that they're better off sacrificing innocent lives through a poorly planned action to start over than living under Saddam is just inaccurate. I will all I want because we claim knowledge of something that we don't have.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakersrock View Post
    That damn Bush and his made up lies about all th......

    Oh wait.....

    I'm gonna hold my breath until many of the liberals that demonized him for "making up stuff" and "lying" apologize.
    How does this undo the fact that he wanted something to happen and looked for reasons, rather than having reasons to justify an action?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakersrock View Post
    That damn Bush and his made up lies about all th......

    Oh wait.....

    I'm gonna hold my breath until many of the liberals that demonized him for "making up stuff" and "lying" apologize.
    I just posted that the administration had plans to invade Iraq before 9/11 even happened.

    The real apology should be to all the troops and their families who lost their lives based on an illegal and unjustifiable war. Anybody who thinks we reluctantly went to Iraq for "freedom" and to "spread democracy" really need to go back and study our history.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    How does this undo the fact that he wanted something to happen and looked for reasons, rather than having reasons to justify an action?
    It doesn't. People feel bad for George W Bush and make excuses for him, when they really should feel bad for our troops. Just b/c a guy has an 'R' next to his name(or a 'D' next to his name) that doesn't mean if I do I should defend a person tooth and nail. Just accept history and move on.
    Last edited by The Schmooze; 02-17-2011 at 01:56 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakersrock View Post
    That damn Bush and his made up lies about all th......

    Oh wait.....

    I'm gonna hold my breath until many of the liberals that demonized him for "making up stuff" and "lying" apologize.
    The word you're looking for here is propagated. He propagated this guy's uncredible, idiotic lies. The second word you're looking for is extrapolated. He extrapolated from this guy's uncredible, idiotic lies to send his lackeys out to tell us we faced nuclear destruction, "a mushroom cloud," if we did not immediately invade Iraq. The third phrase you're looking for is relied upon. He relied upon this guy's self-interested, uncredible, idiotic lies to aggressively invade another country, doing so in the face of opposition from nearly every other country in the world, and in clear violation of international law. That is why he and Cheney aren't traveling so much these days. . .

    I'm not holding my breath waiting for an apology from Bush and his neocon cronies for invading and occupying a country, resulting in the death of hundreds of thousands of its citizens, on the basis of a obvious lie. Roll your eyes at that.
    Last edited by Labgrownmangoat; 02-17-2011 at 06:19 PM.
    “A riot,” said Martin Luther King, “is the language of the unheard.”

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labgrownmangoat View Post
    The word you're looking for here is propagated. He propagated this guy's uncredible, idiotic lies. The second word you're looking for is extrapolated. He extrapolated from this guy's uncredible, idiotic lies to send his lackeys out to tell us we faced nuclear destruction, "a mushroom cloud," if we did not immediately invade Iraq. The third phrase you're looking for is relied upon. He relied upon this guy's self-interested, uncredible, idiotic lies to aggressively invade another country, doing so in the face of opposition from nearly every other country in the world, and in clear violation of international law. That is why he and Cheney aren't traveling so much these days. . .

    I'm not holding my breath waiting for an apology from Bush and his neocon cronies for invading and occupying a country, resulting in the death of hundreds of thousands of its citizens, on the basis of a obvious lie. Roll your eyes at that.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    It's not our place to decide what's best for them. We don't live there. Only their citizens know what's best. We're seeing that now in Egypt and Tunisia, that the masses can take action.
    Thats exactly what I said in my post. Re-read it please.

    We put the man in place to rule their country and then busted in to take him out for reasons that have NOTHING to do with the good of the Iraqi people. Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because we think we know what's best for them?
    We put the man in there to balance Iran, and he did, then went rogue, we took him out based on this guy's lie. It has nothing to do with what is right, its about the balance of power going our way.. Like I said, I was and still am against the US being involved in Iraq or any other country, but business is business, its politics, it is unfortunately how the world is run..EVEN THOUGH I HATE HOW THE WORLD IS RUN, it is run this way.. I seriously hope you read that part..

    He was sold to us as an ally then denounced as a demon. The fact is that we don't know what it's like over there and assuming that they're better off sacrificing innocent lives through a poorly planned action to start over than living under Saddam is just inaccurate. I will all I want because we claim knowledge of something that we don't have.
    Saddam Killed over 2 Million of his own people, and did not have a DEMOCRACY... I dont know about you, but I would much rather live in a democracy than in a totalitarian dictatorship.. I dont have to live in Saddam's Iraq to know that I wont like living there, or any other dictatorship in history..

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan56 View Post
    I was there and I actually heard the same thing in May 2003 from a guy I was in the same unit with and who was on a search team.
    interesting, they told you they came from france as well?

    Don't ask don't tell is back, not for gays in the military, Obama's policy for questions about Libya - Jay Leno

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan56 View Post
    I was there and I actually heard the same thing in May 2003 from a guy I was in the same unit with and who was on a search team.
    check this out also, I knew another country besides france also sold them weapons but i couldnt think who at the time of the post, but wikileaks actually reported it

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...ising-results/

    Don't ask don't tell is back, not for gays in the military, Obama's policy for questions about Libya - Jay Leno

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakersrock View Post
    That damn Bush and his made up lies about all th......

    Oh wait.....

    I'm gonna hold my breath until many of the liberals that demonized him for "making up stuff" and "lying" apologize.
    But the article points out how the CIA (read:Bush's boys) withheld the credibility (or lack thereof) of this guy. All in an effort to clean up what daddy screwed up before.
    Member of the Owlluminati!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAKERMANIA View Post
    Thats exactly what I said in my post. Re-read it please.

    We put the man in there to balance Iran, and he did, then went rogue, we took him out based on this guy's lie. It has nothing to do with what is right, its about the balance of power going our way.. Like I said, I was and still am against the US being involved in Iraq or any other country, but business is business, its politics, it is unfortunately how the world is run..EVEN THOUGH I HATE HOW THE WORLD IS RUN, it is run this way.. I seriously hope you read that part..


    Saddam Killed over 2 Million of his own people, and did not have a DEMOCRACY... I dont know about you, but I would much rather live in a democracy than in a totalitarian dictatorship.. I dont have to live in Saddam's Iraq to know that I wont like living there, or any other dictatorship in history..
    I think we are agreeing, just in different ways. You're just arguing within the box and I'm working with unrealistic ideals where our very presence and involvement in any way, pre-war is detestable. We put Saddam in place and armed him knowing full well his intentions in the Sunni/Shiiate battle. Those deaths may as well be on our hands as much as his.

    Again, and we agree, we won't know what its like to live under Saddam and therefore we (collectively as a country) had no business doing what we did. Of course, none of the war had anything to do with liberating people, so all of this is really moot.

    We know we love living in a democracy because its all we know. Ask a North Korean if they prefer what they have or coming to a democracy like ours. We're both told from day one that we're the best, so why question it. This is way off from the Iraqi debate, I know, just sayin....

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