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  1. #46
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    I would think that if all standards were equally applied to men and women, then this could be considered. But until the military treats men and women equally with regard to holding them to the same standards, this can't happen.

    For example, no one in a combat situation gives a **** if a woman maxed out her PT test if she's too slow to keep up with her team. No one gives a **** if she passed her PT test if she can;t serve as an assistant gunner and carry the weight of the ammo and keep up. The same exact thing is true for men. Which is why current methods for determining physical fitness in the military are completely irrelevent. They mean nothing. What means something is getting the mission done, period.

    I am all for throwing out all current means for testing physical fitness, and making completely new standards and apply them equally to men and women, and then allowing soldiers of either gender to fill any MOS that qualifies. I don;t think the powers that be that are in control have the courage to take those steps.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Well my understanding of the two of your's posts is that men will do much better and be the majority anyways. I dont think that is wrong, whether it was the point you were making or not.

    My only point is that they should be given the chance to try.

    They should all have the same standards and whoever does better, regardless of sex, should be given a chance to serve.
    That is my point. Females can have at it. There will be females that can make it. It will be extremely hard for females to perform 40 push ups with good form. I think they only need like 19 to pass now. To me that is going to be the toughest part of the pt test for them to pass.

    I really don't think females should have the same standards as men on the physical fitness test. For combat MOS's they definitely should, but for support jobs, they should have easier standards.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan56 View Post
    I would think that if all standards were equally applied to men and women, then this could be considered. But until the military treats men and women equally with regard to holding them to the same standards, this can't happen.

    For example, no one in a combat situation gives a **** if a woman maxed out her PT test if she's too slow to keep up with her team. No one gives a **** if she passed her PT test if she can;t serve as an assistant gunner and carry the weight of the ammo and keep up. The same exact thing is true for men. Which is why current methods for determining physical fitness in the military are completely irrelevent. They mean nothing. What means something is getting the mission done, period.

    I am all for throwing out all current means for testing physical fitness, and making completely new standards and apply them equally to men and women, and then allowing soldiers of either gender to fill any MOS that qualifies. I don;t think the powers that be that are in control have the courage to take those steps.
    You stated perfectly what I was I was trying to get at. Would you agree that the current physical fitness test is a little outdated on the current missions that we are performing overseas? I mean push ups, sit ups, and a 2 mile run certainly give a decent indicator of the fitness level of a person, but it really doesn't give a good indicator of how someone is going to perform with a 60 pounds of gear on and a weapon.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sox_13 View Post
    That is my point. Females can have at it. There will be females that can make it. It will be extremely hard for females to perform 40 push ups with good form. I think they only need like 19 to pass now. To me that is going to be the toughest part of the pt test for them to pass.

    I really don't think females should have the same standards as men on the physical fitness test. For combat MOS's they definitely should, but for support jobs, they should have easier standards.
    But they cant currently, otherwise the report would not have been put out.

    It should all be 40 or it should all be 19 (using your numbers). For actual service, the gun will kill the same number of people whether it is fired by a man or by a woman. As a support job the same is true, the paperwork will get filed as effectively as by a man or woman.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by carter80 View Post
    As long as they are not treated differently and held to the same high standard as the male soldiers and that includes physical training.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sox_13 View Post
    That is my point. Females can have at it. There will be females that can make it.
    Right here is my point. So we agree they should be ALLOWED the chance to serve. Everything after that is moot at this point; only discussing who should be allowed to serve. It should go without saying that they need to pass all the usual tests.

    I just don't see how they could be picky with who wants to sign up.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    Right here is my point. So we agree they should be ALLOWED the chance to serve. Everything after that is moot at this point; only discussing who should be allowed to serve. It should go without saying that they need to pass all the usual tests.

    I just don't see how they could be picky with who wants to sign up.
    Yes, I do. The pt standards have to be standardized if they want this to work. I have yet to hear any discussion if they are planning on doing that or not if this goes into effect. Anyone have a link or anything that discusses it in greater detail how they plan on implementing this?

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sox_13 View Post
    Yes, I do. The pt standards have to be standardized if they want this to work. I have yet to hear any discussion if they are planning on doing that or not if this goes into effect. Anyone have a link or anything that discusses it in greater detail how they plan on implementing this?
    Can you (or PatsFan or Carter80) explain what pt standards are? I have a very limited understanding of the fitness testing. I'd Google it, but I'd rather hear from people who actually DID it.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    Can you (or PatsFan or Carter80) explain what pt standards are? I have a very limited understanding of the fitness testing. I'd Google it, but I'd rather hear from people who actually DID it.
    I'm only speaking on the Army pt standards, because I have no idea what the other services standards are. But the testing standards are different based on age and gender. There's three events for the army pt test. 2 minute push-ups, 2 minute sit-ups, and a two mile run. You have to score a 60 or higher in each event to pass (the max score is 100 for each event; so a 300 you would max out the pt test). For instance, a male (22-26 years old) would have to get 40 push-ups, 50 sit-ups, and a 16:36 two mile run time to get a 60 in each event. That would be a minimum score of 180 to pass the pt test. Female standards are different. For a female (22-26 years old) she would have to get 17 push-ups, sit-ups are the same (50), and 19:36 two mile run to get a 60 in each event.

    As you can see, right now the standards are quite different for females and males.

  9. #54
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    Yeah, they should be revised then. Same job = same qualifications.

    On a side note, I'm a little depressed now that I realize I'm not in the younger (22-26) group anymore...

  10. #55
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    The reason certain countries dont allow woman to serve on the front lines (Israel for instnace) is because of the risk that the soldiers get captured and raped among other things and the videos are put onto the internet which is more likely and more damaging with woman. Demoralization here and the fact that woman soldiers will be treated worse as POW's is all considered

    I was discussing this with someone who used to serve in the IDF and that's what they said.

    I still think woman should serve on the front lines but this is just another interesting perspective from an officer who served in Lebanon II

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sox_13 View Post
    I'm only speaking on the Army pt standards, because I have no idea what the other services standards are. But the testing standards are different based on age and gender. There's three events for the army pt test. 2 minute push-ups, 2 minute sit-ups, and a two mile run. You have to score a 60 or higher in each event to pass (the max score is 100 for each event; so a 300 you would max out the pt test). For instance, a male (22-26 years old) would have to get 40 push-ups, 50 sit-ups, and a 16:36 two mile run time to get a 60 in each event. That would be a minimum score of 180 to pass the pt test. Female standards are different. For a female (22-26 years old) she would have to get 17 push-ups, sit-ups are the same (50), and 19:36 two mile run to get a 60 in each event.

    As you can see, right now the standards are quite different for females and males.
    i have, in my 6 years of serving and soon to be more, have meant a handful of women that can keep up with men on just the pt test. When the **** hits the fan and you got 60 lbs of gear on plus your weapon and you are carrying your injured buddy thats when the real test is, i have only meant maybe 1 or 2 women that MIGHT be able to keep up.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    Yeah, they should be revised then. Same job = same qualifications.

    On a side note, I'm a little depressed now that I realize I'm not in the younger (22-26) group anymore...
    It sure makes it alot easier to pass though.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrice9 View Post
    The reason certain countries dont allow woman to serve on the front lines (Israel for instnace) is because of the risk that the soldiers get captured and raped among other things and the videos are put onto the internet which is more likely and more damaging with woman. Demoralization here and the fact that woman soldiers will be treated worse as POW's is all considered

    I was discussing this with someone who used to serve in the IDF and that's what they said.

    I still think woman should serve on the front lines but this is just another interesting perspective from an officer who served in Lebanon II
    I'm confused, I thought women DID serve in battle in the Israeli army...

    Quote Originally Posted by carter80 View Post
    It sure makes it alot easier to pass though.
    That's the depressing part....now I need a handicap.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by carter80 View Post
    i have, in my 6 years of serving and soon to be more, have meant a handful of women that can keep up with men on just the pt test. When the **** hits the fan and you got 60 lbs of gear on plus your weapon and you are carrying your injured buddy thats when the real test is, i have only meant maybe 1 or 2 women that MIGHT be able to keep up.
    Our argument is only, why keep those women who can compete out?
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  15. #60
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    I think we've come to an agreement:

    Women should be allowed to sign up.
    The should be iven no handicaps in testing their ability
    No special treatment.


    ....like Starship Troopers. They can all shower together too.

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