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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    We're talking his opinion on restrictions of freedom. He won't be testifying to any of that.

    And he won't giving his opinion at trial. And his opinion most certainly won't be allowed to influence the jury's decision on sentencing. And unless he was actually a witness to the shooting (not clear if he was), then he won't be a witness at all.

    And clearly we're talking about whether in matters in an objective sense ... whether it should matter.

    It should not.
    Victims families do testify at sentencing hearings. Not sure how AZ handles it, but most places jurors don't hand out the sentence, they merely give a recommendation. Its the judge that gives the sentence...

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    Please, I did not "call out" this guy for voicing his feelings. D Roses Bulls offered the guy's feelings as an attempt to influence our opinions on restrictions of freedoms. I correctly noted that the passions of this situation should not cloud our reason, whether they be in the name of more restriction, less restriction, or no change in restriction.

    I don't have a problem with this guy being on TV. I have a problem with the argument that his opinion matters more because of his proximity to the situation. That is allowing passions to enter the realm of reason. We should reject that argument or else embrace irrationality.


    And please don't try to demonize me again. I have nothing but respect and sorrow for this guy. Your post here was actually very, very offensive.
    That's not how I interpreted your post, or Nate's, which was where you chose to enter the discussion. I apologize if I misinterpreted your point, or was offensive. I interpreted your post to mean what you just indicated it wasn't.

  3. #18
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    I have a question: Would you feel so strongly about how "credible" his opinion was if he had taken the exact opposite stance?
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    We're talking his opinion on restrictions of freedom. He won't be testifying to any of that.

    And he won't giving his opinion at trial. And his opinion most certainly won't be allowed to influence the jury's decision on sentencing. And unless he was actually a witness to the shooting (not clear if he was), then he won't be a witness at all.

    And clearly we're talking about whether in matters in an objective sense ... whether it should matter.

    It should not.
    Well there will be a hearing on the sentencing and he will be called to testify on the sentencing. It isnt a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. The only way he wouldnt be called is if the defense lawyer doesnt care what the client gets.

    I dont know if he will be called as a witness for the shooting, but he will be called when sentencing comes around. I dont want to appear to cold or calculating, but this guy is the best shot that the shooter has of avoiding the death penalty. People will put many of their own convictions aside if they see that the dad of the little girl thinks that we shouldnt be too extreme with the punishment.
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  5. #20
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    This is a trivial argument. His opinion matters if you believe it does. There's no all encompassing rule on whose opinion is worth something; it's valuable to the listener who feels it is. If you don't then it isn't.

    I think it's a strong move by him in a time of grief and for the masses an opinion that is wanted. I don't consider him an authority on restrictions of freedoms just because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but his opinion matters just as much as everyone else does.....which depending on the day is A LOT or not a damn bit.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    This is a trivial argument. His opinion matters if you believe it does. There's no all encompassing rule on whose opinion is worth something; it's valuable to the listener who feels it is. If you don't then it isn't.

    I think it's a strong move by him in a time of grief and for the masses an opinion that is wanted. I don't consider him an authority on restrictions of freedoms just because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but his opinion matters just as much as everyone else does.....which depending on the day is A LOT or not a damn bit.
    Yup, well said...

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    This is a trivial argument. His opinion matters if you believe it does. There's no all encompassing rule on whose opinion is worth something; it's valuable to the listener who feels it is. If you don't then it isn't.

    I think it's a strong move by him in a time of grief and for the masses an opinion that is wanted. I don't consider him an authority on restrictions of freedoms just because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but his opinion matters just as much as everyone else does.....which depending on the day is A LOT or not a damn bit.
    True, i agree that his opinion can be completely ignored if they agree and dont think it should matter.

    I want this guy to get the death penalty and would likely ignore his plea on this, but im not going to say that it shouldnt matter, he is the one who is actually suffering because of it.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    True, i agree that his opinion can be completely ignored if they agree and dont think it should matter.

    I want this guy to get the death penalty and would likely ignore his plea on this, but im not going to say that it shouldnt matter, he is the one who is actually suffering because of it.
    I'm not about the death penalty in any situation....but that's a different topic for a different time.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    I'm not about the death penalty in any situation....but that's a different topic for a different time.
    To my knowledge that is the most important impact of his actual experience. He wont really play any role in the actual trial unless the defense just wants to ask him if he thinks that the death penalty should be applied.

    His "use" (and yes that is sad) by the defense will be to keep the needle out of the shooters arm. They will parade him, and this story, around for the death penalty decision.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    This is a trivial argument. His opinion matters if you believe it does. There's no all encompassing rule on whose opinion is worth something; it's valuable to the listener who feels it is. If you don't then it isn't.
    And that's subjective. I've stated that I'm referring to whether his opinion matters in an objective sense. Whether it SHOULD matter.

    I think it's a strong move by him in a time of grief and for the masses an opinion that is wanted. I don't consider him an authority on restrictions of freedoms just because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but his opinion matters just as much as everyone else does.....which depending on the day is A LOT or not a damn bit.
    Yes. It matters just as much as everyone else with a similar knowledge or expertise on the advantages and disadvantages of restrictions on freedoms. Since we've been given no such knowledge or expertise, I'm not quite sure why we're being told that this opinion should matter any more than anyone else's.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    And that's subjective. I've stated that I'm referring to whether his opinion matters in an objective sense. Whether it SHOULD matter.
    yeah and I'm saying whenever anyone says anything it has as much value as you apply to it. There is no "should".

    I guess I'm just saying, I don't want to play your game

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    Please, I did not "call out" this guy for voicing his feelings. D Roses Bulls offered the guy's feelings as an attempt to influence our opinions on restrictions of freedoms. I correctly noted that the passions of this situation should not cloud our reason, whether they be in the name of more restriction, less restriction, or no change in restriction.

    I don't have a problem with this guy being on TV. I have a problem with the argument that his opinion matters more because of his proximity to the situation. That is allowing passions to enter the realm of reason. We should reject that argument or else embrace irrationality.


    And please don't try to demonize me again. I have nothing but respect and sorrow for this guy. Your post here was actually very, very offensive.
    Let me ask you something..... how does someone else who wasn't affected by this incident have a bigger voice to people in this country then the people it actually affected? Why is it ok to use some victims to push a political agenda and not others? because maybe you may not have agreed with what he said. and I posted this because what he is saying is true. you may not feel that way, but it is. you told someone in this very post im quoting you to not demonize you again, well then don't assume the reason for me posting what he said.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Roses Bulls View Post
    Let me ask you something..... how does someone else who wasn't affected by this incident have a bigger voice to people in this country then the people it actually affected?
    They don't. Absent any other information, they have equal voices.

    Why is it ok to use some victims to push a political agenda and not others?
    It's not. Quote me where I said it was or drop the argument.

    because maybe you may not have agreed with what he said.
    By and large, I agree with him. But thanks for making assumptions.

    and I posted this because what he is saying is true.
    Truth is not subjective. And if that's why you posted this, then the reference to his relationship to this tragedy serves what purpose?

    you may not feel that way, but it is.
    It's not, no matter how much you or I agree with him.

    you told someone in this very post im quoting you to not demonize you again, well then don't assume the reason for me posting what he said.
    Those two things are wholly unrelated. Demonizing me by saying I need a "human being lesson" is nothing like assuming someone's reason for posting a thread on an internet message board. And, um, who is making assumptions here again?

    Please explain the reference to this man's relationship to this tragedy. In other words, why does the title of this thread start out with "Father of 9 Year Old Murder Victim ..."?

    Also, your characterizations of his argument as "truth" pretty well corroborate my argument. And the exclamation point doesn't do much to combat my argument that citing this man's opinion plays on passions and not reason.


    You are actively trying to cloud reason with passions. That is a fundamental error. I am pointing out that error.
    Last edited by philab; 01-11-2011 at 04:52 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    They don't. Absent any other information, they have equal voices.



    It's not. Quote me where I said it was or drop the argument.



    By and large, I agree with him. But thanks for making assumptions.



    Truth is not subjective. And if that's why you posted this, then the reference to his relationship to this tragedy serves what purpose?



    It's not, no matter how much you or I agree with him.



    Those two things are wholly unrelated. Demonizing me by saying I need a "human being lesson" is nothing like assuming someone's reason for posting a thread on an internet message board. And, um, who is making assumptions here again?

    Please explain the reference to this man's relationship to this tragedy. In other words, why does the title of this thread start out with "Father of 9 Year Old Murder Victim ..."?

    Also, your characterizations of his argument as "truth" pretty well corroborate my argument. And the exclamation point doesn't do much to combat my argument that this man's opinion plays on passions and not reason.


    You are actively trying to cloud reason with passions. That is a fundamental error. I am pointing out that error.
    Passion? Look I will be the first to admit, Yes! I do not think we should have more restrictions in this country. I think we have too many already, but I'm not letting my passion cloud me. what reason do you speak of? should we let this isolated incident really affect all Americans? what good is that really gonna do? now the congressman that wants to introduce a bill to make it a federal crime to make a threat,signs, or gestures towards pretty much anyone who is a law maker, is he right? how will that help this country more? all thats going to do is create more fear towards the government. they could use that bill to intimidate anyone who is against a certain politician. and how does this mans opinions play on passion? his daughter was just murdered, most people that have had a child killed by a gun become pro gun control and the same when a child is killed for example by drinking a driving. if anything, this guy wasn't speaking from passion,he was speaking rationally and using his head, but not his heart. Also, I had used the title, because it was the title of the video. not since a mod accused me of switching the titles to a story to fit my own agenda over the summer have I used my own title. if you click the link, thats the title of the actual video, all i did was copy and paste.
    Last edited by D Roses Bulls; 01-11-2011 at 05:03 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Roses Bulls View Post
    Passion? Look I will be the first to admit, Yes!
    Right. And that's contrary to reason. And actively clouding reason is a mistake.

    I do not think we should have more restrictions in this country. I think we have too many already, but I'm not letting my passion cloud me. what reason do you speak of? should we let this isolated incident really affect all Americans? what good is that really gonna do? now the congressman that wants to introduce a bill to make it a federal crime to make a threat,signs, or gestures towards pretty much anyone who is a law maker, is he right? how will that help this country more? all thats going to do is create more fear towards the government. they could use that bill to intimidate anyone who is against a certain politician.
    Tilting at windmills ...

    and how does this mans opinions play on passion? his daughter was just murdered, most people that have had a child killed by a gun become pro gun control and the same when a child is killed for example by drinking a driving. if anything, this guy wasn't speaking from passion,he was speaking rationally and using his head, but not his heart.
    The man's opinion might very well be rational. Referring to his relationship to this tragedy, however, is funneling in passions and thus not rational. In other words, I'm talking about YOU, not him.

    Regarding him, what you don't seem to understand is that I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Given his proximity to the situation and the likelihood that passions would cloud his reason, I ordinarily would discredit his opinion altogether. Here, however, I'm willing to assume that he's being rational. Problem is, he's still just a random rational guy in Tucson. I've been alerted to no special expertise or knowledge that he has regarding restrictions on freedom. As such, I've been alerted to no reason why his opinion matters more than that of anyone else.

    Also, I had used the title, because it was the title of the video. not since a mod accused me of switching the titles to a story to fit my own agenda over the summer have I used my own title. if you click the link, thats the title of the actual video, all i did was copy and paste.
    And thus you were an accomplice to the attempt to cloud reason.

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