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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    They claimed he was a Nazi war criminal who was shredding the Constitution.

    They made a movie depicting his assassination.

    They claimed he was responsible for 9-11.
    Here's the difference as I see it...

    In your post, by "they" you mean left-wing whackos, people on blogs, and those far outside the mainstream political spectrum. What we've seen for the last 2 years is that the crazy rhetoric, usually reserved for the far right wing of the Republican party....has come from the congress-persons and mainstream political figures(i.e. a Sarah Palin). In other words, the mainstream of the party. That's the difference.

    ...and guess what? Regarding Bush, you actually have an argument that he was a war criminal who shredded the Constitution(meaning you can backup your argument with factual analysis)...as opposed to baseless accusations that Obama is a M u s l i m, or a socialist/communist...coming from the mainstream Republicans. The gun metaphors and violent rhetoric that have came back to light are downright scary.

    I've really tried to keep an objective opinion on everything, but what we're seeing on the news isn't reality. It hasn't been 50/50 on both sides, and nobody should be criticized for citing peoples' own statements and actions(and others should not play the victim, and make excuses for what they've done). Of course Palin, and the violent rhetoric we've seen and heard aren't directly responsible for this tragedy.......but that doesn't change that what he her, Angle, etc. have said/done is wrong.

    Hopefully as a country we can have a discussion that will hopefully END this violent discourse once and for all.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze View Post
    Here's the difference as I see it...

    In your post, by "they" you mean left-wing whackos, people on blogs, and those far outside the mainstream political spectrum. What we've seen for the last 2 years is that the crazy rhetoric, usually reserved for the far right wing of the Republican party....has come from the congress-persons and mainstream political figures(i.e. a Sarah Palin). In other words, the mainstream of the party. That's the difference.

    ...and guess what? Regarding Bush, you actually have an argument that he was a war criminal who shredded the Constitution(meaning you can backup your argument with factual analysis)...as opposed to baseless accusations that Obama is a M u s l i m, or a socialist/communist...coming from the mainstream Republicans. The gun metaphors and violent rhetoric that have came back to light are downright scary.

    I've really tried to keep an objective opinion on everything, but what we're seeing on the news isn't reality. It hasn't been 50/50 on both sides, and nobody should be criticized for citing peoples' own statements and actions(and others should not play the victim, and make excuses for what they've done). Of course Palin, and the violent rhetoric we've seen and heard aren't directly responsible for this tragedy.......but that doesn't change that what he her, Angle, etc. have said/done is wrong.

    Hopefully as a country we can have a discussion that will hopefully END this violent discourse once and for all.
    I don't see it happening now. I was hoping to see some humility from both sides but the right wing really painted themselves as the victims in this yesterday. I have to hand it to Roe Conn in Chicago though, he was the one guy who sounded level headed and was actually dismissing lunatic callers.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze View Post
    Here's the difference as I see it...

    In your post, by "they" you mean left-wing whackos, people on blogs, and those far outside the mainstream political spectrum. What we've seen for the last 2 years is that the crazy rhetoric, usually reserved for the far right wing of the Republican party....has come from the congress-persons and mainstream political figures(i.e. a Sarah Palin). In other words, the mainstream of the party. That's the difference.

    ...and guess what? Regarding Bush, you actually have an argument that he was a war criminal who shredded the Constitution(meaning you can backup your argument with factual analysis)...as opposed to baseless accusations that Obama is a M u s l i m, or a socialist/communist...coming from the mainstream Republicans. The gun metaphors and violent rhetoric that have came back to light are downright scary.

    I've really tried to keep an objective opinion on everything, but what we're seeing on the news isn't reality. It hasn't been 50/50 on both sides, and nobody should be criticized for citing peoples' own statements and actions(and others should not play the victim, and make excuses for what they've done). Of course Palin, and the violent rhetoric we've seen and heard aren't directly responsible for this tragedy.......but that doesn't change that what he her, Angle, etc. have said/done is wrong.

    Hopefully as a country we can have a discussion that will hopefully END this violent discourse once and for all.
    It is pretty close to 50/50 actually. Just one side gets attacked for it more. You hear about anything Glenn Beck says, but do you have any idea who said this?

    He is an enemy of the country, in my opinion, Dick Cheney is, he is an enemy of the country. He’s making it harder for those who are in power right now to protect the country. He’s about the political divide. It just, I just think the guy’s such a freakin’ loser. You know, Lord, take him to the Promised Land, will you? See, I don’t even wish the guy goes to Hell, I just want to get him the hell out of here.


    What about this?

    I was just born poor in a country where the Wealthy manipulate, use, abuse, and economically enslave 95% of the population.

    The first one is Ed Schultz doing what Ed Schultz does, saying outrageous things. The second one is from the Florida School Board shooter who was obviously a nut. But the interesting thing about the second one, is that it was part of a note, I believe left on his Facebook page. Also on that page were quotes from Warren Buffett which said: There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class that's making war and we're winning along with some V for Vendetta imagery which he also used in his shooting. Do you remember the big outcry after the school board shooting about a need to calm down the class warfare rhetoric, and a big discussion about how that rhetoric may have played a role in the shooting? Me neither.
    Last edited by gcoll; 01-11-2011 at 01:01 PM.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    It is pretty close to 50/50 actually. Just one side gets attacked for it more. You hear about anything Glenn Beck says, but do you have any idea who said this?

    He is an enemy of the country, in my opinion, Dick Cheney is, he is an enemy of the country. He’s making it harder for those who are in power right now to protect the country. He’s about the political divide. It just, I just think the guy’s such a freakin’ loser. You know, Lord, take him to the Promised Land, will you? See, I don’t even wish the guy goes to Hell, I just want to get him the hell out of here.


    What about this?

    I was just born poor in a country where the Wealthy manipulate, use, abuse, and economically enslave 95% of the population.

    The first one is Ed Schultz doing what Ed Schultz does, saying outrageous things. The second one is from the Florida School Board shooter who was obviously a nut. But the interesting thing about the second one, is that it was part of a note, I believe left on his Facebook page. Also on that page were quotes from Warren Buffett which said: There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class that's making war and we're winning along with some V for Vendetta imagery which he also used in his shooting. Do you remember the big outcry after the school board shooting about a need to calm down the class warfare rhetoric, and a big discussion about how that rhetoric may have played a role in the shooting? Me neither.
    Who did you expect that outcry to come from? The millions of people struggling in this bad economy like this guy did or from the political pundit big shots who pretend to be just like the common man? The right wing dominates cable news and talk radio. Why didn't they call for a tone down of class warfare rhetoric when this happened?

  5. #95
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    Again gcoll. I don't want to get into a debate about whose side said what, or whose is ocnsidered worse....but the point was that most recently we've seen crazy rhetoric from elected congress-persons, not bloggers. It's become more mainstream, and more dangerous, IMO.

    The gun and violent rhetoric, from either side, needs to stop. There's just too many crazies out there who take that stuff seriously

  6. #96
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    Rep. Driehaus, via Matt Taibbi, makes the point I most want to communicate:

    Another Ohio Democrat, Steve Driehaus, clashed repeatedly with Boehner before losing his seat in the midterm elections. After Boehner suggested that by voting for Obamacare, Driehaus "may be a dead man" and "can't go home to the west side of Cincinnati" because "the Catholics will run him out of town," Driehaus began receiving death threats, and a right-wing website published directions to his house. Driehaus says he approached Boehner on the floor and confronted him.

    "I didn't think it was funny at all," Driehaus says. "I've got three little kids and a wife. I said to him, 'John, this is ********, and way out of bounds. For you to say something like that is wildly irresponsible.'"

    Driehaus is quick to point out that he doesn't think Boehner meant to urge anyone to violence. "But it's not about what he intended it's about how the least rational person in my district takes it. We run into some crazy people in this line of work." (emphasis mine)

    Driehaus says Boehner was "taken aback" when confronted on the floor, but never actually said he was sorry: "He said something along the lines of, 'You know that's not what I meant.' But he didn't apologize."
    Jan. 5 Rolling Stone Article
    I'm going to list ALEC in credits as associate producer of creating horrifying things for us to talk about -John Oliver

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  7. #97
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    A case can be argued that the shooter came from the right, as some are trying to do. And a case can be made that he is from the left. The truth being that Jared Loughner was lost in his own world, made up in his mentally disturbed mind. As far as I can tell those that are trying to turn this tragedy into a political situation are doing a Rahm Emanuel - never let a crisis go to waste. I enjoyed Doug Powers article on that.

    http://dougpowers.com/2011/01/11/nev...s-go-to-waste/

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry34 View Post
    Who did you expect that outcry to come from? The millions of people struggling in this bad economy like this guy did or from the political pundit big shots who pretend to be just like the common man? The right wing dominates cable news and talk radio. Why didn't they call for a tone down of class warfare rhetoric when this happened?
    People who claim to care about the level of political rhetoric.

    The right wing doesn't "dominate" cable news. They have Fox News, which is the highest rated station by a wide margin, however the other 2 networks are more left wing. So they dominate in the sense that they get higher ratings, but 2/3 big cable news networks are left wing.

    As far as talk radio. Yeah, the right wing dominates it. But the left wing dominates the network television stations as well as a lot of the newspapers, and has a pretty good network of blogs and internet news sites.

    As far as why the right didn't call for a tone down of the class warfare rhetoric? Because it's a stupid point. And the right wing is not trying to advance an idea that left wing rhetoric leads to violence. Ever since the Tea Party started the idea that the anti-Obama rhetoric was going to lead to violence was promulgated by people on the left, so they will try to jam any act of violence into that prism. When that Florida School Board shooting happened, there were murmurs from the blogs about Tea Party involvement. When it was revealed he was no member of the Tea Party, that idea was dropped and his ideology stopped mattering.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze
    It's become more mainstream, and more dangerous, IMO.
    But I still don't buy into the premise that it is dangerous.

    When someone picks up a gun and commits this sort of act, they are already gone. They are way more extreme than anything out there in the political realm. You don't get inspired to do something extreme by people less extreme than you are. I reject the entire premise that targets on a map or gun metaphors are going to cause any problems.

    The argument is that people who are already close to the edge may be pushed over by this political rhetoric. But if they are already close to the edge, they are already far beyond the mainstream.
    Last edited by gcoll; 01-11-2011 at 03:40 PM.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labgrownmangoat View Post
    Rep. Driehaus, via Matt Taibbi, makes the point I most want to communicate:



    Jan. 5 Rolling Stone Article
    If we judge it by how the least rational person takes it, we can't say anything. The guy who shot Ronald Reagan did so to impress Jodie Foster, possibly spurred on by the film "Taxi Driver"

    And you gotta at least recognize some crossover between the Islam issue we argued earlier (was that you?) and this issue. Obviously plenty of people are taking the words of the Qur'an to justify violence. A woman starts a "draw mohammed day" facebook campaign as a political statement, and has to change her name and go into hiding. These people use the Qur'an as a reference when justifying these actions.

    If you're going to take that line of reasoning, I am going to ask that you be consistent. And if you apply this idea consistently, you see how ridiculous it is.
    Last edited by gcoll; 01-11-2011 at 04:10 PM.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    But I still don't buy into the premise that it is dangerous.

    When someone picks up a gun and commits this sort of act, they are already gone. They are way more extreme than anything out there in the political realm. You don't get inspired to do something extreme by people less extreme than you are. I reject the entire premise that targets on a map or gun metaphors are going to cause any problems.

    The argument is that people who are already close to the edge may be pushed over by this political rhetoric. But if they are already close to the edge, they are already far beyond the mainstream.
    In the last 2 years alone there have been incidents where people went out and committed(or got caught trying to) heinous acts of violence...and later admitted it was b/c of things they heard on TV(notion that Obama would "take all guns away", and ratings of Beck on the Tides Foundation, and some "coming revolution"). People formulate their entire perspective on the world on what they see on TV or the so-called "news".

    Of course I don't blame Glenn Beck completely, but even if there's a debate on this issue....why even allow this crazy and violent rhetoric in our politics???

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze View Post
    In the last 2 years alone there have been incidents where people went out and committed(or got caught trying to) heinous acts of violence...and later admitted it was b/c of things they heard on TV(notion that Obama would "take all guns away", and ratings of Beck on the Tides Foundation, and some "coming revolution"). People formulate their entire perspective on the world on what they see on TV or the so-called "news".

    Of course I don't blame Glenn Beck completely, but even if there's a debate on this issue....why even allow this crazy and violent rhetoric in our politics???
    Because freedom of speech, and freedom of expression are important.

    You allow it because you have to in the interest of living in a free society.

    And you're gonna have some extreme rhetoric. Comes with the territory. And blaming the rhetoric for the actions, as I have stated quite a few times, is stupid. Blame the guy with the gun, shooting people. He's the problem. Regardless of what TV shows he liked, what movies he liked, what music he listened to, what his political ideology is. As far as the "what they've seen on TV" point. I am not aware of what you are referencing. I know of the guy who apparently was going to target the Tides Foundation to "start a revolution", but nothing other than that story. As far as a "coming revolution", crazy people always talk about stuff like that. 9-11 truthers talk about it non-stop. It's all over all kinds of music, and art, and just about everything.

    But. Think about the argument being advanced. By this standard, numerous people are trying to get Sarah Palin harmed. Based on their own criteria, and their own arguments. Wait...there has to be a gun metaphor in order to be incitement. My mistake.
    Last edited by gcoll; 01-11-2011 at 05:41 PM.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    People who claim to care about the level of political rhetoric.

    The right wing doesn't "dominate" cable news. They have Fox News, which is the highest rated station by a wide margin, however the other 2 networks are more left wing. So they dominate in the sense that they get higher ratings, but 2/3 big cable news networks are left wing.

    As far as talk radio. Yeah, the right wing dominates it. But the left wing dominates the network television stations as well as a lot of the newspapers, and has a pretty good network of blogs and internet news sites.

    As far as why the right didn't call for a tone down of the class warfare rhetoric? Because it's a stupid point. And the right wing is not trying to advance an idea that left wing rhetoric leads to violence. Ever since the Tea Party started the idea that the anti-Obama rhetoric was going to lead to violence was promulgated by people on the left, so they will try to jam any act of violence into that prism. When that Florida School Board shooting happened, there were murmurs from the blogs about Tea Party involvement. When it was revealed he was no member of the Tea Party, that idea was dropped and his ideology stopped mattering.
    Is every media outlet that isn't hard core right considered left wing today? That's the feeling I get from every conservative I know and basically every conservative pundit. Which is really convenient because it's easy to dismiss any news report as "left wing rhetoric" if you convince everybody of this, even if it's a simple news wire.

    CNN has a few left leaning pundits but they are also the station that made Glenn Beck famous (on tv). I don't watch a ton of CNN but their coverage has never seemed anywhere near the bias of Fox and MSNBC.

    You make it sound like the left wing created the rhetoric leading to violence out of thin air. There have been a lot of death threats to representatives. Giffords herself had threats and her offices vandalized.

    The right wing advanced the idea that left wing rehtoric was un-American and un-patriotic for years when Bush was criticized. So the idea that they take the high road is bogus.

    Also there were murmurs about the Arizona shooting being a left wing conspiracy set up to make the right look bad on blogs hours after the shooting. I wouldn't put too much weight into that.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    If we judge it by how the least rational person takes it, we can't say anything. The guy who shot Ronald Reagan did so to impress Jodie Foster, possibly spurred on by the film "Taxi Driver"

    And you gotta at least recognize some crossover between the Islam issue we argued earlier (was that you?) and this issue. Obviously plenty of people are taking the words of the Qur'an to justify violence. A woman starts a "draw mohammed day" facebook campaign as a political statement, and has to change her name and go into hiding. These people use the Qur'an as a reference when justifying these actions.

    If you're going to take that line of reasoning, I am going to ask that you be consistent. And if you apply this idea consistently, you see how ridiculous it is.
    This issue is not nearly as black and white as you would like to make it. There are reasonable lines that can be drawn be people with consciences. We're not talking about "jusifying violence" here. We're talking about sloppily haranging people using violent terms without regard for their potential impact. Did Boehner have to say Rep. Driehaus "may be a dead man"? No, he chose to say it, and his saying it lead directly to death threats against Driehaus. That's a long, long ways from Taxi Driver.

    Look, I'm not saying that any of this kind of speech should be prohibited. I am saying that people who irresponsibly use this kind of speech shouldn't be supported, and should be told by their constituents and peers that it's unacceptable.

    Btw, I have no idea what your reference to "the Islam issue" is in this context. Perhaps you are mistakenly demanding that I be consistent with someone else's stances?
    I'm going to list ALEC in credits as associate producer of creating horrifying things for us to talk about -John Oliver

    People who think the least powerful members of society are responsible for most of its problems are deluded, at best.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry34 View Post
    Is every media outlet that isn't hard core right considered left wing today? That's the feeling I get from every conservative I know and basically every conservative pundit. Which is really convenient because it's easy to dismiss any news report as "left wing rhetoric" if you convince everybody of this, even if it's a simple news wire.

    CNN has a few left leaning pundits but they are also the station that made Glenn Beck famous (on tv). I don't watch a ton of CNN but their coverage has never seemed anywhere near the bias of Fox and MSNBC.

    You make it sound like the left wing created the rhetoric leading to violence out of thin air. There have been a lot of death threats to representatives. Giffords herself had threats and her offices vandalized.

    The right wing advanced the idea that left wing rehtoric was un-American and un-patriotic for years when Bush was criticized. So the idea that they take the high road is bogus.

    Also there were murmurs about the Arizona shooting being a left wing conspiracy set up to make the right look bad on blogs hours after the shooting. I wouldn't put too much weight into that.
    CNN is left wing. Not as far as MSNBC, obviously, but they aren't centrist. They lean left. And as far as the rest of the media, it tends to lean left. Most journalists are left wing.

    As far as the death threats go. Yes. That is created out of thin air. Because they assume a causal link, and they conflate the peaceful, rational opposition with the people who were making death threats and breaking windows.

    Quote Originally Posted by LabGrownManGoat
    Btw, I have no idea what your reference to "the Islam issue" is in this context. Perhaps you are mistakenly demanding that I be consistent with someone else's stances?
    May have been North Country.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze
    In the last 2 years alone there have been incidents where people went out and committed(or got caught trying to) heinous acts of violence...and later admitted it was b/c of things they heard on TV(notion that Obama would "take all guns away", and ratings of Beck on the Tides Foundation, and some "coming revolution"). People formulate their entire perspective on the world on what they see on TV or the so-called "news".
    I can't think of anything that fits this description. Since you didn't point to any real event, I tend to think this is just flat out false, and you're just bringing it up to fradulently justify attempts made by some politicians to control speech that they don't like/disagree with.
    "If [Republicans] were around when Columbus set sail, they must have been founding members of the Flat Earth Society." -- Pres. Barack Obama

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