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  1. #1
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    Best 2B of all time

    #1. Joe Morgan
    #2. Craig Biggio
    #3. Ryne Sandberg
    #4. Roberto Alomar
    #5. Jeff Kent
    #6. Rod Carew
    #7. Jackie Robinson
    #8. Rogers Hornsby
    #9. Charlie Gehringer
    #10. Frankie Frisch
    #11. Eddie Collins
    #12. Nap Lajoie
    #13. Lou Whitaker
    #14 Bobby Grich
    #15. Joe Gordon/Bobby Doerr/Billy Herman

    The names are there, but the order will probably upset some. It's because so many of the big guys came before 1950 - and I discount value due to weakness of competition as time goes back.

    Biggio played too long, but he was great during his peak, also won a silver slugger as a catcher.

    Robinson gets time lost to the prevailing conditions of his day.

    Carew played more games at 1B, and was a meh 2B with the glove.

    Grich is a guy to learn more about, he was a really strong player and was basically ignored during his career.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  2. #2
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    I like the list. I would maybe move Biggio down 1 or 2 spots but its a good list. No glaring omissions. Maybe bump Carew down under Jackie Robinson.

    But its all preference.
    Suck it

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJBASEBALL22 View Post
    I like the list. I would maybe move Biggio down 1 or 2 spots but its a good list. No glaring omissions. Maybe bump Carew down under Jackie Robinson.

    But its all preference.
    Yeah, I meant to put Carew under Jackie, even with the era bias issues. I really gave Biggio's peak a lot of credit, his career stats got nailed by sticking around for his 3k hits.

    Obviously in a historical sense there is at least two if not four old timers that should rank in front of Biggio. But the era bias knocked them down.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  4. #4
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    Joe Morgan would be my #1. Terrific player Morgan was during his time. I'd have Rod Carew in my top 5 as well.
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  5. #5
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    Surprised you have Sandberg over Alomar. Robbie was a much better hitter and beats him out in longevity. I know FG and BR WAR have Alomar ahead, so even if Sandberg is a better fielder I don't think he's good enough to overtake Alomar. I always thought Alomar was a good defender which is why the low fielding stats surprise me.

    I'm pretty sure their peaks were similar, but I'd have to think Alomar's was slightly better because he had the higher OBP.
    Last edited by Twitchy; 12-26-2010 at 07:40 PM.


    Vic Mackey: You better figure out how much you hate me. And how you're going to deal with that. 'Cause I'm not going anywhere.

    This sums up every sports interview, ever.

  6. #6
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    The question is how high is Chase Utley at this point? I think he'd have a strong argument for top 5 already. Who knows by the end, he might supplant Joe Morgan.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    Surprised you have Sandberg over Alomar. Robbie was a much better hitter and beats him out in longevity. I know FG and BR WAR have Alomar ahead, so even if Sandberg is a better fielder I don't think he's good enough to overtake Alomar. I always thought Alomar was a good defender which is why the low fielding stats surprise me.

    I'm pretty sure their peaks were similar, but I'd have to think Alomar's was slightly better because he had the higher OBP.
    Alomar was a very good fielder at first, and oozed everything that looks like great fielding, but he declined a lot over the years.

    Using BR WAR, Sandberg had 6 seasons over 5.0 WAR to 5 for Alomar.

    More telling is that per PA, Sandberg's were 9% more valuable (PA/WAR) then Alomars - mostly due to defense I am quite sure.

    But it's close enough that I won't argue over it.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea View Post
    The question is how high is Chase Utley at this point? I think he'd have a strong argument for top 5 already. Who knows by the end, he might supplant Joe Morgan.
    I included Pujols at 1B because he has the required 10 years from a HoF standpoint. Utley is at 8 years now, and also age 32 when he his base running and glove should start to slow down, followed a year or three later when the bat starts to slip. I can't put a guy in that is only 60% of the way to Bobby Grich in career value into the top 15.

    Utley is great, but is 7k PA's, and 65 WAR behind Morgan. Don't hold your breath - even with an era bias.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  9. #9
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    Rogers Hornsby
    Eddie Collins
    Joe Morgan
    Nap Lajoie
    Charlie Gehringer
    Jackie Robinson
    Bobby Grich
    Frankie Frisch
    Roberto Alomar
    Rod Carew
    Craig Biggio
    Joe Gordon
    Ryne Sandberg
    Lou Whitaker
    Jeff Kent
    Billy Herman
    Bobby Doerr
    Willie Randolph
    Chase Utley
    Tony Lazzeri

    My tentative, eye balled only list in order. Give me a few hours to make revisions to it....this is also a top 20, I will condense it to 15 later.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea View Post
    The question is how high is Chase Utley at this point? I think he'd have a strong argument for top 5 already. Who knows by the end, he might supplant Joe Morgan.
    He would have to maintain 6 WAR seasons for quite a while and as he is aging, it could become more difficult.

    I see him heading to the hall of fame, but to become number one, he is going to have to age well throughout his 30's.

    Too bad he didn't get going until he was 26.

  11. #11
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    Roger Hornsby, Rod Carew, and Jackie Robinson are my favorites.

  12. #12
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    1. Rogers Hornsby
    2. Eddie Collins
    3. Joe Morgan
    4. Nap Lajoie
    5. Charlie Gehringer
    6. Jackie Robinson
    7. Frankie Frisch
    8. Rod Carew
    9. Bobby Grich
    10. Roberto Alomar
    11. Craig Biggio
    12. Joe Gordon
    13. Lou Whitaker
    14. Ryne Sandberg
    15. Jeff Kent

    Sorry it took so long, holidays, and I didn't want to just throw a list out there.

    My hall of fame line would prolly be around 13-14...although, no complaint for all 15 to be in...Kent is a hall of famer in my opinion.

  13. #13
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    @bagwell, really surprised by Sanberg placement, same with Kent.

    That seems to be quite the boost when you are comparing playing eras....I mean, we have 4 second basemen with career WAR over 100, and Sandberg is number 3?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    @bagwell, really surprised by Sanberg placement, same with Kent.

    That seems to be quite the boost when you are comparing playing eras....I mean, we have 4 second basemen with career WAR over 100, and Sandberg is number 3?
    Collins and Lajoie as they were wouldn't be near what they were on paper in todays game - maybe not even 30.0's.

    If Kent gets proven as a juicer he is out of there. There isn't much difference between #2 and #7 on my list, I had to order them, didn't I? Biggio is better then any of the others. Alomar is heavily overrated IMO, can't put him higher. I don't like Carew much either, maybe I should have put Jackie higher....

    I like Gordon, Lou, I really like Grich - but I wouldn't put them in front of Sandberg I can't even imagine how that could be right - ever.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  15. #15
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    more value in less games...that is why. Players like Jackie had short careers, and yet have the same or more value than Sanberg.

    Just going by career WAR, Sanberg is like 15th all time at second.

    Grich played just as long, had a better peak, and longer, and has a higher career value.

    Whitaker had a longer career, and more career value with the same peak. He is Sanberg, but played longer.

    Gordon played five less seasons than Sanberg, and has almost the same career value. His peak kills Sanbergs. If Gordon didn't miss time to war, he would have killed Sanberg, and his peak already does.

    To the argument of players in different eras, I said this in the other thread about third basemen...
    because it's a complete hypothetical, and we can only measure what we do know, which is how the player performed, in the era that he performed, and the level of competition that he played against. It's only fair to rate a player against those measurements, and not against how he would do today against current players. Too much has changed to measure that. Even if Bill James says 10% value decrease, that is still just a shot in the dark guess.
    It's not Gordon or Grich's fault they were born before Sanberg. These guys played at the level that we can give value to. Why give guys new, assumed values and weight them based on what eras they played in? Why not weigh them against guys that they played against? It's measurable.

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