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  1. #91
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    And to address the bird vs LeBron argument playing with Jordan. Lebron is better. At almost everything right? He's a crazy freak to cover even more than Larry was, an extremely willing passer, and clearly defense. Larry is pretty much better at three point shooting (which Larry was not a stand in the corner guy) and he's got that killer edge like maybe only Jordan ever had. That's more likely to clash with Jordan that what LeBron does well... who dominates the ball largely because of his talent. Not because he's a psychopath who demands the ball so much at the expense of great players. We certainly got a showcase of Irving's dribbling skills and Wade's remaining iso dominance.

    As far as clashing with Jordan... Jordan is Jordan because he's Jordan lol. If someone started taking the ball from him in clutch time Jordan would take the man's children hostage to make sure Lebron or Bird passed him the ball.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunkapolooza View Post
    NYKalltheway - an interesting set of teams except that Team C I think is significantly undermaned compared to those other teams. Stockton and Moncrief? Not only is that the smallest pair of guards, its also the worst at scoring, the least athletic, and **** for championships. I love Duncan/Russell obviously looking at my top five. But they got not scorers in team C and in basketball (as much as I'm a defensive guy in everything) great offense > great defenses. Team C's scorers are Bird, Duncan, Moncrief? nice... if you we aren't going against Shaq, Kobe, west, Erving, Garnett... who are all better scorers than moncrief and at least as good as Duncan. Or Jordan, Barkley, and Hakeem. (the best team imo), or Gervin, Magic, Wilt, and Wilkins. I mean C has **** for firepower right?

    Team C is actually great and can outscore anybody while they won't concede as many. That's the beauty of it. They're the most underrated all time stars.

    Stockton could have been an elite scorer but he was a pass first and had to play with Karl Malone who was an elite inside scorer. In any other context, Stockton could have had 25ppg for fun.
    Moncrief is a borderline top 5 non-big in the 80s. That's not easy to achieve with Magic, Bird, Jordan, Isiah, Nique and Drexler being around. And he's probably a top 10 player in the 80s which is probably the most stacked decade and that's including the bigs like Moses Malone, Kareem even in his older days, Hakeem, Ewing etc.
    He could score, he could shoot the midrange, defend like the best of them and box out like a boss.
    No need to introduce Larry Bird or Tim Duncan. Both are severely underrated even if Duncan was considered top 10 by many, I see people dismissing Larry's genius. Then Bill Russell, people think he'd be average but hell no. The guy was legit.

    I think the way I made the four teams makes for entertaining games in their own way.

    Team A:
    Run, run, run. And Rodman chase everybody else.

    Team B:
    Seems like the best on paper because they have everything. Except three point shooting, but who needs that?

    Team C:
    Hard nosed defence and creative half court offensive. What's not to like?

    Team D:
    The most all around scoring accompanied with great defensive efforts.

    I agree that Team B looks like the best and you'd think that they win the individual match ups as well, but it's not how basketball works and that's the whole beauty of the sport.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunkapolooza View Post
    And to address the bird vs LeBron argument playing with Jordan. Lebron is better. At almost everything right? He's a crazy freak to cover even more than Larry was, an extremely willing passer, and clearly defense. Larry is pretty much better at three point shooting (which Larry was not a stand in the corner guy) and he's got that killer edge like maybe only Jordan ever had. That's more likely to clash with Jordan that what LeBron does well... who dominates the ball largely because of his talent. Not because he's a psychopath who demands the ball so much at the expense of great players. We certainly got a showcase of Irving's dribbling skills and Wade's remaining iso dominance.

    As far as clashing with Jordan... Jordan is Jordan because he's Jordan lol. If someone started taking the ball from him in clutch time Jordan would take the man's children hostage to make sure Lebron or Bird passed him the ball.
    Larry is a better passer than Lebron and arguably a more willing one too. Probably a better rebounder as well because in Lebron's era everyone can rebound due to more (missed) shots per game and the structure of teams, the boxing out etc. Back in Larry's day it was a full house paint and rebounding was classified as art at some point.
    Larry can also take over a game whenever he feels like it, take the last shot and decide to go full scoring or full passing, or even play with his weaker hand for a game just to see how it looks and still get 35/10/10.

    Also, Jordan doesn't need a ball dominant forward next to him. There's no scenario where Lebron is as successful as he is without having the ball as much. Larry Bird could easily move off the ball like Reggie Miller or Ray Allen, give a no look pass instantly after receiving the ball and do much more. Lebron is only stronger than Larry but that doesn't say much and he's better at driving to the basket but our only source of comparison is Lebron's era empty lanes vs Larry's era full packed lanes. But Larry could hit a jump shot like no one so why drive to the basket if it's filled with 7 footers?

    I can't believe how underrated this guy is.

  4. #94
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    Stockton could not have been anything else but what Stockton was in my opinion. I just donít buy him being a 25 pt per game scorer. I donít buy it in his personality. He never won a title remember? If at some point, he could or was willing to take on a more significant scoring load, donít you think he would have tried it eventually? Now he did play in pretty much the slowest era of ball, so maybe in another era he would have scored closer to twenty, but if he had the personality necessary to score 25 pts a game he would have scored 25 pts a game. Thatís the difference between Eddie Jones and Reggie Miller. Itís attitude as much as anything.
    From what I understand of your opinion, it seems like you believe he had the talent to lead a team like that, therefore the only thing holding him back had to do with his personality right?

    I donít think he had the talent to do that either though. Offensively, if he had to score 25 pts a game, I think his team would have to be terrible for his scoring percentage to be that high. Heís just not a great one on one player. Which is necessary, in my opinion, for an elite closer.

    Moncrief is not on the same level as the scorers for those other teams though. Yeah, great scorer in the nba, but heís just not on the same level as every other teams. Gervin > Moncrief. Magic > Moncrief. Wilt > Moncrief. Dominique >/= Moncrief. By a lot by all but wilkins lol. Compared to team A Moncrief is a below average scorer. Heíd be their fourth best.

    Jordan > Moncrief. Barkley > Moncrief. Hakeem > Moncrief. And Pippen and Payton are equally as good scorers and defenders.

    All five starters for D are arguably better than Moncrief.

    Donít get me wrong. I love team Cís players. Larry Bird is the only man on that team who is on the floor for his scoring ability. I donít think Larry is underrated. If I had to pick a guy to take a last second shot to win the game it goes Jordan then Larry to me. I know a lot of people who consider him a top three player. Heís probably in my top five or ten. One of those teams has magic, his nemesis, another has Jordan, the man who surpassed him, and the last has five players who averaged 25 points and four who were mvps. In fact Larry is probably my favorite SF of all time. Duncan is my favorite PF. And Russell is my favorite C lol. I just think Larry will be expected to take too many shots, and I donít trust Moncrief to win against Kobe, Jordan, and Gervin consistently. Stockton and Bill are probably the worst two scorers in the whole set. On the same team, and they donít have the best scorer with them. Throwing in Oscar instead of Stockton though would probably have evened things up a lot more.

    Personally Iíd vote the Jordan team. Best D out there and the best scorer. But I mean they are close.
    Larry was a great passerÖ but come on man. Lebron is a better passer. His career assist per game is 7.2, larry only reached that mark three times his entire career. Their turnovers are almost equal 3.1 larry vs 3.5 james. 7.9 vs 9.7 asst per 100 possessions. 3.9 Larry vs 4.7 Lebron turnovers per 100. Thatís a better turnover ratio. 35.7 asst% for lebron vs 24.7 larry. I mean heís better. Both great at that. Lebron is better.

    You say that all about Larry like Lebron is not near impossible to box out and can take over games at will too?
    Skill set wise, yeah Larry can go play a stand in the corner and shoot threes handed to him type of roll (not what reggie did who moved without the ball a lot like a CJ McCullum, which Iím not sure larry is quick enough for that.) But Larry the man could not do that role. Being that kind of personality is what let him play a game with his left hand and become a great basketball player in general. Larry demanded the ball at the end of games, he did not care at whose expense or what kind of defense he was facing. There was essentially no scenario where he did not want the ball in his hand at the end of games. In clutch moments. Even going to so far as to contradict his coach. In my opinion that cannot coexist with Jordan. Imagine is Scottie Pippen demanded the ball like that? Thatís where dysfunction comes from. And if Larry did not have that kind of edge and personality, who would he be? Certainly not Larry.

    Lebron playing the pippen role next to Jordan? Scottie who was also a high assist sfÖ. Basically a poor manís lebron. Up until his championship with the cavs I think most people would have argued that he would have preferred that role. I think Lebron would rather make the smartest play rather than the best play. It was Kyrie who took the big shot who won them the game. After heroics getting his own shots too. Jordan I feel like, or Larry, would have punched him in the face after the game was over for taking that shot. Even though it went in lol.

    And Lebron is a heck of a lot more than just stronger than Larry. Heís more athletic all around. Jumps higher. Accelerates faster. Covers the floor as fast as anyone in history. Heís quicker with his shoulders back to the basket, with his feet on defense, and with his hands dribbling. Larry could not stay in front of lebron. Lebron could stay in front of larry. There is no such thing as a paint that Lebron cant attack.

  5. #95
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    I'll just mention that the way assists have been measured from one point onward is way different than before. It's much more beneficial now for the guy giving the pass as in the past the same situation would not warrant assists.
    In the 60s and early 70s, pre ABA merge, you got a FGA even if you were fouled. Now it's only added if you also score, so it's helpful, but if you went to the line on a shot in the past your FG% would be penalized.

    You can't look at a spreadsheet and compare different eras. Hell, you shouldn't even do it to compare Lebron with Melo for example who are contemporaries.

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