ESPN: Bulls defensive/offensive efficiency season tracker: Defense #1, Offense #12

[abe_froman]

I am not saying it won't happen, but name me some point guards that were the leading scorer in their team and led them to a championship in the last 15 years?

If you want to go beyond that, Besides issah, I can't think of no one else in NBA history.

how many different teams have won titles over the past 15 years? again your ignoring relevant facts.pulling out a number while seeming its a long period of time,surely many different teams can fit in there,but you forget the nba is a league of dynasties and that only a handful of different teams have won.bulls,lakers,spurs take up 85-90% of the titles won in that span right there.so its like saying because mj is mj,or shaq is shaq...scoring points cant win a ring

ok.cousy,frazier,magic(and tons more who have gotten close)

you point it it as the cause.yet you completely throw away some very big factors ;like who else was on the team and who did that team face.so you can come way thinking well cp3 scores alot and didnt make it to the finals and only looking on the surface,than sure...but your omitting some pretty big info here that well might change the perception.you never mentioned he lost to a spurs team only one year removed from winning the championship(zomg they have a pg who scores alot to),or that his team while good wasnt exactly all nba stalwarts.so was it because he scored alot? maybe,or maybe it might have something to do with david west going up against tim duncan is a laughable matchup

[D1RoseJM]

how many different teams have won titles over the past 15 years? again your ignoring relevant facts.pulling out a number while seeming its a long period of time,surely many different teams can fit in there,but you forget the nba is a league of dynasties and that only a handful of different teams have won.bulls,lakers,spurs take up 85-90% of the titles won in that span right there.so its like saying because mj is mj,or shaq is shaq...scoring points cant win a ring

ok.cousy,frazier,magic(and tons more who have gotten close)

you point it it as the cause.yet you completely throw away some very big factors ;like who else was on the team and who did that team face.so you can come way thinking well cp3 scores alot and didnt make it to the finals and only looking on the surface,than sure...but your omitting some pretty big info here that well might change the perception.you never mentioned he lost to a spurs team only one year removed from winning the championship(zomg they have a pg who scores alot to),or that his team while good wasnt exactly all nba stalwarts.so was it because he scored alot? maybe,or maybe it might have something to do with david west going up against tim duncan is a laughable matchup

There are alot of intangibles that I can list such as what if's, however, I am looking it at straightforward. How many pg were the leading scorers on their championship team? Frazier was only one out of the two, magic only one out the five while Thomas was 2 out 2. No one cares about how close they were or who was on their way, it's either they did or didn't.

Deng needs to step it up and be consistent through all the quarters, not just the first three. He has the talent, but he shy's away from pressure. It's not how you start, but it's how u finish.

[jtsunami]

I am not saying it won't happen, but name me some point guards that were the leading scorer in their team and led them to a championship in the last 15 years?

If you want to go beyond that, Besides issah, I can't think of no one else in NBA history.

Chauncey Billups - Pistons (Finals MVP)
Gary Payton (if not for the Jordan) - Sonics
Magic Johnson - Lakers (Finals MVP)
Isiah/Dumars - Pistons (Both Finals MVPs)
Tony Parker - Spurs (Finals MVP)

You act like there's some unwritten rule that if your PG is your best player and scorer, there is no way to win an NBA championship.

[Doogolas]

Ask chris Paul and deron Williams how far you go into the playoffs when your best scorer is a pg. On top of that rose is still behind deron an chris, so will see if deng's "efficiency and superb defense" push us over Boston, Orlando and the heat. Moreover, hopefully rose can score 30 plus every night

Yeah, and it's all about Deng too. It's not like we have a guy who puts up 20PPG hurt right now.

[D1RoseJM]

Chauncey Billups - Pistons (Finals MVP)
Gary Payton (if not for the Jordan) - Sonics
Magic Johnson - Lakers (Finals MVP)
Isiah/Dumars - Pistons (Both Finals MVPs)
Tony Parker - Spurs (Finals MVP)

You act like there's some unwritten rule that if your PG is your best player and scorer, there is no way to win an NBA championship.

I am talking about through the season.

[jtsunami]

The finals MVP part was to show you that they were arguably the best player on the team.

However, on those teams, those players were the best scorers and players on their respective teams with the exception of Tony Parker (ala Duncan) regardless of the regular season or playoffs.

[jtsunami]

D Wade also is very comparable to Rose (I think the most comparable). Wade handled the ball more like a PG than a traditional SG. He won an NBA title, too.

[Branwegner84]

Chauncey Billups - Pistons (Finals MVP)
Gary Payton (if not for the Jordan) - Sonics
Magic Johnson - Lakers (Finals MVP)
Isiah/Dumars - Pistons (Both Finals MVPs)
Tony Parker - Spurs (Finals MVP)

You act like there's some unwritten rule that if your PG is your best player and scorer, there is no way to win an NBA championship.

Bird played a point forward

Also another thing to note, I can't remember a time when there was this many good PG. The league is moving away from huge dominant big man, to more speed and better PGs.

[DLeeicious]

Bird played a point forward

Also another thing to note, I can't remember a time when there was this many good PG. The league is moving away from huge dominant big man, to more speed and better PGs.

Yeah this is the thing. The league is contantly evolving. Something that may have been true even 5 years ago could be completely irrelevant today. To say something like "A team can't win with their point guard as their leading scorer" is beyond absurd. So Duncan edged out Parker by a little over a point per game in 2007 - Phewwww otherwise they couldn't have won the title that year. I'm sure if Parker was ahead with a few games left he would have been forced to tank and not score to ensure Duncan led the team in ppg because again a team can't win the title if their point guard is their leading scorer.

My point is, throw out rules of thumb in basketball because they are useless and arbitrary 99.9% of the time.

[D1RoseJM]

The finals MVP part was to show you that they were arguably the best player on the team.

However, on those teams, those players were the best scorers and players on their respective teams with the exception of Tony Parker (ala Duncan) regardless of the regular season or playoffs.

Kemp was the leading scorer per game. Plus, Payton didn't win championship.


Hamilton was the Leading scorer per game.

Magic only lead the team once in scoring while winning the championship that year.

Thomas was the only one to lead in points and win both of his championships as I've stated before.

I understand that we still have boozer coming back and that he can relief rose of having to shoot 30 plus shots a night, but besides that who else? Deng is and has been in the last years inconsistent. Yes, it's only Been two games, but Deng has always been inconsistent. You even had van gundy and jackson keep on repeating that Deng needed to help rose because he wasn't going to win the game by himself against the thunder. Rose went cold in the fourth and like always Deng dissapears in the fourth.

[D1RoseJM]

Yeah this is the thing. The league is contantly evolving. Something that may have been true even 5 years ago could be completely irrelevant today. To say something like "A team can't win with their point guard as their leading scorer" is beyond absurd. So Duncan edged out Parker by a little over a point per game in 2007 - Phewwww otherwise they couldn't have won the title that year. I'm sure if Parker was ahead with a few games left he would have been forced to tank and not score to ensure Duncan led the team in ppg because again a team can't win the title if their point guard is their leading scorer.

My point is, throw out rules of thumb in basketball because they are useless and arbitrary 99.9% of the time.

I didn't know we had a Duncan type caliber player I'm our team

[DLeeicious]

I didn't know we had a Duncan type caliber player I'm our team

So a team can win with the leading scorer as a point guard so long as a Duncan type player is on the team? Any other asterisks to this "rule" about point guards being the leading scorer?

[D1RoseJM]

So a team can win with the leading scorer as a point guard so long as a Duncan type player is on the team? Any other asterisks to this "rule" about point guards being the leading scorer?

If rose goes cold, who else picks up the slack or helps create offense ? Tony Parker had ginobli, Duncan That can pour 20 plus any night. They were the second best team on defense and 5 th best on offense In their last championship.

[DLeeicious]

If rose goes cold, who else picks up the slack or helps create offense ? Tony Parker had ginobli, Duncan That can pour 20 plus any night. They were the second best team on defense and 5 th best on offense In their last championship.

So that's an issue of the supporting cast on our team not an issue of our leading scorer happening to play point guard. If you swap Rose for Kobe right now you can type your exact paragraph above and replace "Rose" with "Kobe" and it will ring true. Right now we need Boozer healthy and we need our other guys to step up. It's not an issue of Rose being our point guard and our top scorer, it's an issue of guys not playing well the first few games. Don't forget we are in a new system with new players and a new coach. There will be growing pains.

[*-THE REAL GM-*]

You guys are really funny ganging up on this guy for stating the same facts that you hear and have heard on radio, television and seen in print. Many basketball minds greater than anyone hear on this forum have stated the same things publicly and to this point, in the last 15 years, have been correct. So how can you argue against that?

History is proof enough.. You cant win the big dance with your pg leading the team in scoring during the regular season. If you think about it, it does make sense. If your team is used to a pg that dominants the ball in that manner, how can you possible have other teammates get better at taking over the game when its needed and counts. it is really that simple.

Until thibs forces deng to score more, he wont and until Rose forces deng to score more (and when i say force, I mean put him in the positions to score and live with the results so he gets used to scoring consistantly) it wont happen. They will have to force him into that role because he does not have the stones to take it.


And another thing, bird was not a point foward, he was a great passing foward with great vision. They did not play him at the 1 nor did they let him bring the ball up, nor did they let him defend the one amongst other things that a point foward does. There is a difference between a point foward and a great passing foward. Pippen, Hill, James, etc.. are point fowards. Bird was not. Bird did not dribble the ball all over the place and was a great half court playmaker, but that does not make you a point foward. I dont know where that came from and Im more surprised that others here did not correct that statement.