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  1. #31
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    I had a couple of guys from another forum that basically introduced me to it slowly.

    I never read any books at the time or anything, there were just basic baseball discussions going on, and they constantly won those arguments because of their knowledge on the subject.

    I first came to more saber-minded statistics in the beginning of the off-season of 2006 when people online were saying how Ryan Howard should be the MVP. Being a Cardinal fan, I felt Pujols was the better player, but I didn't know how to prove it....and I was being a homer (admittedly) at the time. I wanted Pujols to win the MVP because I was being a fan.

    My two 'online friends' quietly agreed with me, while I debated with a Phillies fan over RBI's, hot months, and who we assumed played better defense. We didn't know wtf we were talking about when looking back in hind-sight.

    Then the infamous comment, RBI's are based on your team, not the individual player. So I listened, this argument supported what I wanted (Pujols to look better) and that stats like UZR etc show that Pujols is a superior defensive player (not fielding percentage). These guys kept explaining why I was 'in the right' without knowing why I was right.

    That is where it started, and since then anytime I want to learn something, those two guys are who I listen to first. They too have changed and grown in their baseball knowledge, and they are not rude about their opinions (very good linguists) and say their opinions clearly and concisely.

    So I never had the chance to be resistant, because the argument I wanted to win, I was already on the correct side for, I just didn't know why yet.

    Eventually things like WAR, and wOBA became better well known for me, and the rest has become history. I enjoy learning more and more, but overall, saber-metrics as a whole is a little overwhelming. Just because there is so much out there, and to chisel stats away one at a time is really the only way I can try to keep up. For the most part, I am saber-ill knowledged, but I know it well enough to get around.

    At a buddy's house a few saturday's ago (BBQ) and we are sitting around talking baseball. Guys I grew up with, played baseball with through high school and college, and somehow my bro-in-law and I go onto the topic of Lance Berkman....then the word saber-metrics was said, and two of my friends (my age, 27, consider themselves baseball enthusiasts) said ......'what the hell is saber-metrics?'


    How can you be such a big baseball fan and not have at least heard of it?

  2. #32
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    I have found that over the years of discussing online that most of the people that do at least accept saber-metrics (they may not know it, but the accept it) tend to be more open-minded and more intelligent thinkers. Those that seem to be resistant also seem to be that way in other facets of life.

    In other words, being open minded to saber-metrics tends to follow a pattern of being able to understand and learn with an open mind other topics, like politics, religion, parenting, and other topics that I have discussed with the same people online.

    I don't know how else to say that in a more kind way, no matter how or if I ever say such a thing, I am labeled an elitist, rude, condescending, and 'up my own ***'.

    I can't help that the majority of people whose opinions I respect also tend to be the same people whose opinions are swayed by logic and reasoning rather than emotions and assumptions.

    It is hard to be patient with people that say wrong things as though they are right though. Which also creates a negative tone. It's hard to discuss things without talking down to people about the topic. I can not discuss this with my best friend because he always feels I am talking over his head, and he simply doesn't care enough. He knows I know what I am talking about, but since he doesn't understand it and doesn't want to take the time to understand it, it leaves me talking over his head. I'm not sure exactly how to complete this transition.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 04-18-2011 at 05:49 PM.

  3. #33
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    Sabermetrics were hard to accept at first but now I can't imagine baseball without them.

    HEAT
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  4. #34
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    I remember when I was younger I was told there were only 8 planets in this solar system. Then they discovered Pluto and I was told it was the 9th planet. Then I was told it was a moon. Now, I am told it is a planet again, but some scientist argue that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crucis View Post
    Parity is about equality of opportunity, not equality of results.

  5. #35
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    I never was hard for me to change the way I looked at baseball because for the most part saber-metrically inclined sportswriters were way more interesting to read than traditional ones. If guys like Bill Simmons wrote nearly as good guys like Posnanski, than I'd still be in bed with batting average and fielding percentage!

  6. #36
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    Something that's funny to me, is that I got my start on SABR stats from Bob Uecker, when I was very young. He was a bit ahead of the game in some regards I guess, but it's also funny because he is far from being considered a SABR mind. Anyways, I couldn't have been any older than 8, because I only followed the Brewers while they were an AL team, as I am first and foremost a Cubs fan. Anyways, Uecker talked a little bit about how batting average was overrated, and that he preferred to look at OBP and SLG. I found that interesting (I was a very sports-nerdy 8 year old). So that's what I would say to my friends. My little league coach kept track of batting average, but he calculated my OBP and SLG at special request. I started to take tons of walks, which I feel bad about looking back, because its little league baseball.

    Now, I think that batting average, for some, particularly on this forum, has swung from overrated to underrated. Same goes for ERA. The old school line of thinking can be flawed at times, but not all the time. For instance- if a guy hits .300 with 30 HR and 120 RBI, I don't need to know any advanced stats to know he had a good season. RBI is NOT a useless stat. Some people hit well with RISP, some do not. Some will simply have down years, etc.

    SABR, is important, but it doesn't simply replace traditional stats. There is a place for those as well. My favorite way to simply quantify the value of a hitter is with a slash line plus their BA with RISP. Something like .275/.350/.450 .280. That tells you how they are performing overall, plus how they are doing in RBI opportunities.

  7. #37
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    I really am getting more and more into them and trying to understand them.

    My only knock on the SABR community is they seem to completely shut out anyone that doesn't conform and the ones of us who are trying to grasp they just ignore or throw back handed insults at cause we may not know all this stuff.

    Instead of correcting and helping out someone who is new to it they just act like dicks or completely ignore you as if this is some elite community of know alls. I have pretty much acquired or grasped anything I have learned on my own or reading others posts. I know if some guys weren't so shut off by others you can learn so much faster if guys would just take time to not be dicks and help others out.

    I love SABR stats and I think it is a cool way to look at baseball and analyze it but, for the most part the community of SABR heads come off as pretty damn arrogant and can belittle guys without even knowing it.

    That kind of teaching turns some guys away from it IMO. I mean going from a simple slash line to the mega ton of SABR stats isn't exactly easy.

  8. #38
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    Siding and Windows

    All I Can say is WOW!!! You have stunned me with the amount a valuable reading here

  9. #39
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    For a long time I've understood things like obp is important, fielding percentage doesn't mean anything, bats that can play at premium defensive positions have more value, outs on the base paths are bad, etc

    I really started to get interested in advanced pitching evaluation and defensive evaluation since joining this site several years ago.

  10. #40
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    i have a question


    hr: influenced by the park he plays in and the lineup around him
    rbi: influenced by having a great lineup around him where guys are always on base
    runs: influenced by having guys behind him to drive him in

    basically these stats are more team driven and/or influenced by the environment the hitter plays in


    so how you rate a batter then, thanks

  11. #41
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    I'm planning on starting to post in here a little bit, so I figured I would reply to this thread.

    For me, it has been very gradual. I started posting on PSD about 5 years ago at age 16, and I have been gradually been sliding into sabr stuff since. I come from somewhat of a different background than most baseball fans on here, in that I never played baseball (or competitie sports that much in general) as a kid, aside from little bits of pickup here and there. I was always a sports fan though, but much preferred the analytical side of things. My favourite part of sports video games wasn't the game play, it was simulating entire seasons and keeping track of stats etc. So I guess sabr stuff has been a natural fit for me, but I just didn't know about it until I joined PSD. Since then, it has just been gradual immersion therapy, I guess.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by thornga2 View Post
    Something that's funny to me, is that I got my start on SABR stats from Bob Uecker, when I was very young. He was a bit ahead of the game in some regards I guess, but it's also funny because he is far from being considered a SABR mind. Anyways, I couldn't have been any older than 8, because I only followed the Brewers while they were an AL team, as I am first and foremost a Cubs fan. Anyways, Uecker talked a little bit about how batting average was overrated, and that he preferred to look at OBP and SLG. I found that interesting (I was a very sports-nerdy 8 year old). So that's what I would say to my friends. My little league coach kept track of batting average, but he calculated my OBP and SLG at special request. I started to take tons of walks, which I feel bad about looking back, because its little league baseball.

    Now, I think that batting average, for some, particularly on this forum, has swung from overrated to underrated. Same goes for ERA. The old school line of thinking can be flawed at times, but not all the time. For instance- if a guy hits .300 with 30 HR and 120 RBI, I don't need to know any advanced stats to know he had a good season. RBI is NOT a useless stat. Some people hit well with RISP, some do not. Some will simply have down years, etc.

    SABR, is important, but it doesn't simply replace traditional stats. There is a place for those as well. My favorite way to simply quantify the value of a hitter is with a slash line plus their BA with RISP. Something like .275/.350/.450 .280. That tells you how they are performing overall, plus how they are doing in RBI opportunities.
    Absolutely!

    I view it as simply more information. And it is usually more accurate.

    You can tell me a players slash line (minus batting average, and give me his wOBA) and number of plate appearances and I can also tell you how great of a season he had, I wouldn't need his triple crown stats, but I can probably make a pretty good estimate at them.

  13. #43
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    RBIs always seemed like a stupid stat to me, but the real bombshell for me was finally figuring out how little batting average means overall. Sure it's good to have a high one, and between players who hit .320 with a .380 OBP and ones who hit .270 with a .380 OBP you take the high average but outside of these narrow arguments at the margins, BA is largely meaningless and unpredictable year to year.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    I remember when I was younger I was told there were only 8 planets in this solar system. Then they discovered Pluto and I was told it was the 9th planet. Then I was told it was a moon. Now, I am told it is a planet again, but some scientist argue that.
    Pluto was discovered in 1930, and designated a planet at once. I thought I was old.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Pluto was discovered in 1930, and designated a planet at once. I thought I was old.
    Ah yes, the good 'ole 20's. I remember like it was yesterday.

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