When You First Started Getting Into Sabermetrics...

[hoggin88]

I really don't like Sabermetrics. I especially don't like getting into a debate with someone who thinks Sabermetrics is the end all evidence that they are right. Because of this I had to start learning these stats to beat you stat geeks at your own game. Hahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Seriously though I do find alot of this stuff interesting. I just started messing with WAR and went onto another website that had the best single seasons for players according to WAR and enjoyed the **** out of it.

So... are we speaking with Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde right now?

[Lloyd Christmas]

Niether. Those guys are a-holes.

[bosox3431]

I really don't like Sabermetrics. I especially don't like getting into a debate with someone who thinks Sabermetrics is the end all evidence that they are right. Because of this I had to start learning these stats to beat you stat geeks at your own game. Hahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Seriously though I do find alot of this stuff interesting. I just started messing with WAR and went onto another website that had the best single seasons for players according to WAR and enjoyed the **** out of it.

Could you send me that link?

I use to be one of the ones against sabermetrics. But now I try and get people into them. I got a guy at work into them a little bit. I have fun learning about them and how they work.

[long ball]

My uncle (late 40s), who is a huge Twins fan, can recite a player's baseball card stats like it's nobody's business. When he came to Chicago this past summer for a Twins/White Sox game I introduced him to fangraphs and now he's obsessed.

[BoognishMN]

It was never that hard for me to accept Sabermetrics as being a valid way to analyze baseball. Baseball has always been a game that was stats based. That said it has been a complicated transition for me.

I find sabermetrics to be a tool that I can use to get greater enjoyment and understanding out of the game. Unfortunately I find that the greatest supporters of sabermetrics are usually dickheads about it. For many the learning curve can be steep and many casual fans don’t have the time to invest in learning what the statistics are saying and how they are calculated. For the casual fan hearing that there an idiot for thinking that Batting Average is an important tool in calculating a players worth is an immediate turnoff. This is not a free pass for the willfully ignorant, but an observation I have made over the last couple years, remember this is just becoming mainstream.

Additionally, there is something that feels "cold" about stats like WAR, UZR,Etc. compared with HR, SB, and AVG. In a game where tradition and history mean so much, numbers like 56, .406, and 61*are important measures that do not translate well.

[Lloyd Christmas]

Could you send me that link?

I use to be one of the ones against sabermetrics. But now I try and get people into them. I got a guy at work into them a little bit. I have fun learning about them and how they work.

Here is that link.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...t_season.shtml

[Seamhead]

Rejected it? Not at all.

[thefeckcampaign]

I am more than open to learning about all of these new statistics and I continue to ask questions. In fact, I find myself completely converted to OPS+ in recent years as a number I hold as valuable, if not more than some traditional stats I grew up loving. That said, I will not blindly jump into all of them simply because some mathematician says so. Some questions still need to be answered for me and I am not even talking about things like clutch or intangibles at this point.

WAR for an example has 2 and I think maybe 3 different formulas floating around. That alone should make any one of you question to use it as freely as you do. The thing that scares me most is so many use it as the be all, end all stat. Now I do not believe we will ever find that stat. There are just too many different tools a player can offer for us to figure that out in one formula. Looking at QB Rating in football should alert you all to that as well. How many times has the winner of the QB Rating truly been the best QB in the league that year? It took a few years, but I think more than a few people in the industry realize that it's a flawed stat but it was sure ground breaking at the time.

Now I do not know how they came up with that formula for the QB Rating at the time but it seemed great and the same with this wOBA. The concept is wonderful but what is this? (0.72xNIBB + 0.75xHBP + 0.90x1B + 0.92xRBOE + 1.24x2B + 1.56x3B + 1.95xHR) / PA Seriously, are we suppose to just except these numbers like we would Pi = 3.1415926535? Though I am sure it is extremely well thought out, I find over the years people will find ways to "improve" upon it because of it's lack of simplicity. Now until that point, am I suppose to just blindly follow it as the new bible and not take in all the other traditional stats that have lasted for years in consideration as well? I think I am more open-minded than that. Will I consider it? Of course I will, along with all the other stats that I've come to know. But how do we know that wOBA or WAR might not be on the same over-calculated path that QB Rating was?

ERA has lasted all these years because it makes logical sense to people being divisible by 9 and there are 9 innings in a game. Is there a weakness? Sure, you fellas have pointed that out time and time again. Find us a stat then that is just as simple as these traditional stats and you will see them embraced and replace all the ones you cannot stand. One thing I know is the best inventions are the simplest. Until then I will keep an open mind, consider myself one of the few that like both some traditional stats and some saber stats.

It was never that hard for me to accept Sabermetrics as being a valid way to analyze baseball. Baseball has always been a game that was stats based. That said it has been a complicated transition for me.

I find sabermetrics to be a tool that I can use to get greater enjoyment and understanding out of the game. Unfortunately I find that the greatest supporters of sabermetrics are usually dickheads about it. For many the learning curve can be steep and many casual fans don’t have the time to invest in learning what the statistics are saying and how they are calculated. For the casual fan hearing that there an idiot for thinking that Batting Average is an important tool in calculating a players worth is an immediate turnoff. This is not a free pass for the willfully ignorant, but an observation I have made over the last couple years, remember this is just becoming mainstream.

Additionally, there is something that feels "cold" about stats like WAR, UZR,Etc. compared with HR, SB, and AVG. In a game where tradition and history mean so much, numbers like 56, .406, and 61*are important measures that do not translate well.

This is so unbelievably true. In just this thread here when all I was doing was asking a simple question, some guy responded attacking me. Also in the thread was a guy explaining to me cautiously, as he was afraid I was backhandedly going to make fun of him or something.

Though you might not relate in particular, I see many parallels between the saber heads and art/music world.

[OneTuzSea]

This is so unbelievably true. In just this thread here when all I was doing was asking a simple question, some guy responded attacking me. Also in the thread was a guy explaining to me cautiously, as he was afraid I was backhandedly going to make fun of him or something.

Though you might not relate in particular, I see many parallels between the saber heads and art/music world.

Your tone in that first post was kind of like most of the people who are just in this forum to yell "RBI R AWSUM U STUPID NEERDS." And I'm pretty Ice Hawk is one of them with his sarcastic post.

I was just being cautious because I really wasn't sure, but it's always cool seeing someone else trying to learn this. Have fun.

[nyyfan4life]

I got into these advanced stats in 2008, I think. It wasn't really all that hard for me to give up traditional stats. I was very open. I always knew that Shane Spencer was never really as good as his first season. I always knew that Wang was never truly an ace (though he was a valuable starter). I just never really knew all these advanced stats existed (I was only 17 in 08). I'm still not a 'saber-head' but I see the use for saber-stats. I also still use counting stats from time to time.

[ugafan]

I am more than open to learning about all of these new statistics and I continue to ask questions. In fact, I find myself completely converted to OPS+ in recent years as a number I hold as valuable, if not more than some traditional stats I grew up loving. That said, I will not blindly jump into all of them simply because some mathematician says so. Some questions still need to be answered for me and I am not even talking about things like clutch or intangibles at this point.

WAR for an example has 2 and I think maybe 3 different formulas floating around. That alone should make any one of you question to use it as freely as you do. The thing that scares me most is so many use it as the be all, end all stat. Now I do not believe we will ever find that stat. There are just too many different tools a player can offer for us to figure that out in one formula. Looking at QB Rating in football should alert you all to that as well. How many times has the winner of the QB Rating truly been the best QB in the league that year? It took a few years, but I think more than a few people in the industry realize that it's a flawed stat but it was sure ground breaking at the time.

Now I do not know how they came up with that formula for the QB Rating at the time but it seemed great and the same with this wOBA. The concept is wonderful but what is this? (0.72xNIBB + 0.75xHBP + 0.90x1B + 0.92xRBOE + 1.24x2B + 1.56x3B + 1.95xHR) / PA Seriously, are we suppose to just except these numbers like we would Pi = 3.1415926535? Though I am sure it is extremely well thought out, I find over the years people will find ways to "improve" upon it because of it's lack of simplicity. Now until that point, am I suppose to just blindly follow it as the new bible and not take in all the other traditional stats that have lasted for years in consideration as well? I think I am more open-minded than that. Will I consider it? Of course I will, along with all the other stats that I've come to know. But how do we know that wOBA or WAR might not be on the same over-calculated path that QB Rating was?

ERA has lasted all these years because it makes logical sense to people being divisible by 9 and there are 9 innings in a game. Is there a weakness? Sure, you fellas have pointed that out time and time again. Find us a stat then that is just as simple as these traditional stats and you will see them embraced and replace all the ones you cannot stand. One thing I know is the best inventions are the simplest. Until then I will keep an open mind, consider myself one of the few that like both some traditional stats and some saber stats.

Linear weights.

[thefeckcampaign]

Your tone in that first post was kind of like most of the people who are just in this forum to yell "RBI R AWSUM U STUPID NEERDS." And I'm pretty Ice Hawk is one of them with his sarcastic post.

I was just being cautious because I really wasn't sure, but it's always cool seeing someone else trying to learn this. Have fun.

I am glad you didn't take that approach & appreciate your explanations, but I do not see any tone problem in my first post in that thread. In fact, I say "Thank You" in it. I believe honestly a lot of you all are on the defense for some reason, probably for the quotes like the example you gave.

Linear weights.

Though they may be well thought out, I am sure the QB Rating was not randomly chosen either. Just overtime people have figured that formula simply no longer applies. Why are these Linear Weights going to have longevity? They do not have the same organic application that ERA or OPS even has.

[ugafan]

Though they may be well thought out, I am sure the QB Rating was not randomly chosen either. Just overtime people have figured that formula simply no longer applies. Why are these Linear Weights going to have longevity? They do not have the same organic application that ERA or OPS even has.

The QB rating is a terrible statistic and you can't really draw parallels between the NFL and MLB. The NFL has too many variables and it's near impossible to quantify everything while in baseball, it's essentially a series of one-on-one matchups. I'm pretty sure that the linear weights assigned to each outcome is based on research showing the run expectancy(RE) added by each outcome.

[thefeckcampaign]

The QB rating is a terrible statistic and you can't really draw parallels between the NFL and MLB. The NFL has too many variables and it's near impossible to quantify everything while in baseball, it's essentially a series of one-on-one matchups. I'm pretty sure that the linear weights assigned to each outcome is based on research showing the run expectancy(RE) added by each outcome.

Your point of variables is fair enough though it is not entirely one on one, but the QB Rating was held in extreme high regard when it first came out and only in the last few years has it been questioned by everyone with half a brain about football. Hindsight 20/20 in regards to saying it is terrible.

I am just saying I enter with caution with regards to the wOBA stat.

[ugafan]

Your point of variables is fair enough though it is not entirely one on one, but the QB Rating was held in extreme high regard when it first came out and only in the last few years has it been questioned by everyone with half a brain about football. Hindsight 20/20 in regards to saying it is terrible.

I am just saying I enter with caution with regards to the wOBA stat.

I'm not saying that it's bad to question certain statistics as that's how flaws are found and 'better' statistics are created but wOBA is pretty sound.