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  1. #1
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    HCA/W-L vs SRS/EFF aka The Thread JB FEARS

    I cant tell you how many times Ive told JB to stop pointing at HCA or Superior Win-Loss records as an indicator of talent or predicator of team success. While SRS isnt perfect it is far and away the best single measurement we have for measuring a teams level of play. Personally my preferred method of choice includes a similar stance to SRS only limited to the teams most frequently used lineups (In the playoffs these are the only lineups used) along with a few subjective modifiers (health/performance vs good teams/playoff rep etc..). Unfortunately we only have that data for teams of recent memory so SRS/HCA will be the main prognosticator here.

    I found it hilarious that one of the very first playoff series ever in 1947 between the Philly Warriors and St.Louis Bombers was also the first to prove that superior records are meaningless compared to superior efficiency differentials as the lower seeded Warriors "upset" the Bombers. In actuality however the Warriors sported the superior SRS, the overall efficiency marks and should have been favored. This happens so often that I never found it necessary to create this thread, still its an argument that needs to be filtered out of our consciousness, hopefully this will put it to rest for good.

    Keep in mind this isnt meant to bash JB, I have nothing but respect for the man, hes a guy who can take everything you dish and not let it effect your relationship personally, hes always been a cool guy regardless of how much I disagree with him.


    The following is a list of EVERY series where HCA/W-L Records and SRS/EFF disagreed on who to favor and who won out, as you will see this is a one sided argument. BOLD = When HCA/WIN-LOSS% actually won out

    5/9
    PRE-60'S ERA
    Code:
          1947
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Philly vs St.Louis    PHILLY
    
          1950
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Nationals   Lakers 
    
        1951
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Nationals vs Knicks   Knicks 
    
          1951
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Knicks vs Celtics    Knicks Win 
    
          1952
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Royals      Lakers
    
          1954
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Nationals   Nationals
    
          1957
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Warriors vs Nationals  Nationals
    
          1959
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Pistons vs Lakers      Lakers
    
          1959
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Nationals vs Knicks   Nationals
    5/6
    The 60's
    Code:
          1961
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Nationals vs Warriors Nationals
    
          1966
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Hawks vs Bullets       Hawks
    
          1968
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Celtics      Celtics
    
          1969
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Knicks vs Bullets      Knicks
    
          1969
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Celtics vs 76'ers       Celtics
    
          1969
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Celtics vs Lakers      Celtics
    8/16
    The 70's

    Code:
          1970
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Hawks       Lakers
    
          1974
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bulls vs Pistons       Pistons
    
          1976
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bucks vs Pistons      Bucks
    
          1976
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Sonics         Suns
    
          1976
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Cavs vs Celtics         Celtics
    
          1977
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Cavs vs Bullets       Bullets
    
          1977
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Blazers vs Nuggets   Blazers
    
          1977
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Warriors vs Lakers    Lakers
    
          1977
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Blazers vs Lakers     Blazers 
    
          1977
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Blazers vs 76'ers      Blazers
    
          1978
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Sonics      Sonics
    
          1978
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Sonics vs Nuggets    Sonics
    
          1979
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Hawks vs Rockets     Hawks
    
          1979
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Sonics       Lakers
    
          1979
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Sonics         Sonics
    
          1979
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Spurs vs Wizards     Wizards

    6/8
    The 80's


    Code:
          1981
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bulls vs Knicks         Bulls
    
          1982
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bullets vs Nets        Bullets
    
          1984
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Knicks vs Pistons     Knicks
    
          1985
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Blazers vs Mavs        Blazers
    
          1985
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Celtics      Lakers
    
          1988
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Mavs vs Nuggets      Mavs
    
          1988
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Pistons vs Lakers     Lakers
    
          1989
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Pistons      Pistons


    The 90's


    7/16
    Code:
          1990
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Jazz            Suns
    
          1990
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Lakers         Suns
    
          1990
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    76'ers vs Bulls          Bulls
    
          1990
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Blazers        Blazers
    
          1993
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Cavs vs Bulls           Bulls
    
          1993
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Sonics vs Suns         Suns
    
          1993
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bulls vs Knicks         Bulls
    
          1994
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Knicks vs Bulls         Bulls
    
          1994
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Rockets       Rockets
    
          1994
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Knicks vs Rockets     Rockets
    
          1995
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bulls vs Hornets       Bulls
    
          1997
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Jazz vs Spurs           Jazz
    
          1998
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Hornets vs Hawks     Hawks
    
          1998
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Jazz          Jazz
    
          1999
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Pistons vs Hawks     Hawks
    
           1999
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Blazers vs Jazz        Blazers
    10/16
    The 2000's

    Code:
           2001
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Blazers vs Lakers     Lakers
    
           2001
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Kings vs Lakers        Lakers
    
           2002
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Magic vs Hornets      Hornets
    
           2002
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Celtics vs Pistons     Celtics
    
           2003
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Twolves     Lakers
    
           2003
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Nets vs Pistons        Nets
    
           2004
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Pistons vs Pacers      Pistons
    
           2004
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Pistons vs Lakers      Pistons
    
           2005
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Pacers vs Celtics      Pacers
    
           2005
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Spurs vs Suns          Spurs
    
           2007
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Spurs vs Suns          Spurs
    
           2007
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bulls vs Pistons        Pistons
    
           2008
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Jazz vs Rockets        Jazz
    
           2008
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Spurs          Spurs
    
           2010
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Spurs vs Mavs         Spurs
    
           2010
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Spurs vs Suns           Suns

    17/28
    Teams with Identical Records

    1954
    Celtics vs Nationals = SRS Prevails
    1955
    Nationals vs Pistons = SRS Fails
    1956
    Lakers vs Hawks = SRS Fails
    1957
    Lakers vs Pistons = SRS Prevails
    1957
    Lakers vs Hawks = SRS Prevails
    1958
    Royals vs Pistons = SRS Fails
    1975
    Celtics vs Bullets = SRS Prevails
    1976
    Braves vs 76'ers = SRS Prevails
    1977
    Spurs vs Celtics = SRS Fails
    1978
    Cavs vs Knicks = SRS Fails
    1979
    Lakers vs Nuggets = SRS Prevails
    1980
    Rockets vs Spurs = SRS Prevails
    1981
    Kings vs Rockets = SRS Prevails
    1981
    Celtics vs 76'ers = SRS Fails
    1982
    Suns vs Nuggets = SRS Prevails
    1990
    Blazers vs Pistons = SRS Fails
    1993
    Rockets vs Sonics = SRS Prevails
    1996
    Knicks vs Cavs = SRS Fails
    1998
    Spurs vs Suns = SRS Fails
    1998
    Lakers vs Sonics = SRS Prevails
    1998
    Jazz vs Bulls = SRS Prevails
    1999
    Lakers vs Rockets = SRS Prevails
    2000
    76'ers vs Hornets = SRS Fails
    2001
    Mavs vs Jazz = SRS Fails
    2002
    Lakers vs Spurs = SRS Prevails
    2003
    Spurs vs Mavs = SRS Fails
    2008
    Spurs vs Hornets = SRS Fails
    2010
    Jazz vs Nuggets = SRS Prevails



    Summary

    Out of 99 Playoff Series the team with the higher SRS won 58 times, considering HCA is suppose to be a heavy advantage this is a drastic figure. And we're not done yet, part2 of this installment will be to contextualize those scores by recognizing player availability and any other factors you guys feel will skew the results in one way or another. For example Ive excluded the Spurs vs Suns series of 2000 because Duncan was unavailable, to prevent bias this was the only series I excluded. Looking at the results however I found many such instances.

    So what say you, if you were going to Vegas what system would you trust?


  2. #2
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    Good stuff

    I noticed that the odds-makers tend to give a lot of weight to HCA, especially in the playoffs.
    Quote Originally Posted by effen5 View Post
    2 years ago, this team was worth 650 million dollars. Derrick Rose has played ten games since and now this team is worth a billion dollars. Clearly, it's Tom Thibodeu.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I cant tell you how many times Ive told JB to stop pointing at HCA or Superior Win-Loss records as an indicator of talent or predicator of team success. While SRS isnt perfect it is far and away the best single measurement we have for measuring a teams level of play. Personally my preferred method of choice includes a similar stance to SRS only limited to the teams most frequently used lineups (In the playoffs these are the only lineups used) along with a few subjective modifiers (health/performance vs good teams/playoff rep etc..). Unfortunately we only have that data for teams of recent memory so SRS/HCA will be the main prognosticator here.

    I found it hilarious that one of the very first playoff series ever in 1947 between the Philly Warriors and St.Louis Bombers was also the first to prove that superior records are meaningless compared to superior efficiency differentials as the lower seeded Warriors "upset" the Bombers. In actuality however the Warriors sported the superior SRS, the overall efficiency marks and should have been favored. This happens so often that I never found it necessary to create this thread, still its an argument that needs to be filtered out of our consciousness, hopefully this will put it to rest for good.

    Keep in mind this isnt meant to bash JB, I have nothing but respect for the man, hes a guy who can take everything you dish and not let it effect your relationship personally, hes always been a cool guy regardless of how much I disagree with him.


    The following is a list of EVERY series where HCA/W-L Records and SRS/EFF disagreed on who to favor and who won out, as you will see this is a one sided argument. BOLD = When HCA/WIN-LOSS% actually won out

    5/9
    PRE-60'S ERA
    Code:
          1947
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Philly vs St.Louis    PHILLY
    
          1950
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Nationals   Lakers 
    
        1951
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Nationals vs Knicks   Knicks 
    
          1951
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Knicks vs Celtics    Knicks Win 
    
          1952
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Royals      Lakers
    
          1954
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Nationals   Nationals
    
          1957
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Warriors vs Nationals  Nationals
    
          1959
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Pistons vs Lakers      Lakers
    
          1959
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Nationals vs Knicks   Nationals
    5/6
    The 60's
    Code:
          1961
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Nationals vs Warriors Nationals
    
          1966
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Hawks vs Bullets       Hawks
    
          1968
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Celtics      Celtics
    
          1969
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Knicks vs Bullets      Knicks
    
          1969
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Celtics vs 76'ers       Celtics
    
          1969
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Celtics vs Lakers      Celtics
    8/16
    The 70's

    Code:
          1970
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Hawks       Lakers
    
          1974
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bulls vs Pistons       Pistons
    
          1976
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bucks vs Pistons      Bucks
    
          1976
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Sonics         Suns
    
          1976
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Cavs vs Celtics         Celtics
    
          1977
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Cavs vs Bullets       Bullets
    
          1977
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Blazers vs Nuggets   Blazers
    
          1977
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Warriors vs Lakers    Lakers
    
          1977
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Blazers vs Lakers     Blazers 
    
          1977
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Blazers vs 76'ers      Blazers
    
          1978
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Sonics      Sonics
    
          1978
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Sonics vs Nuggets    Sonics
    
          1979
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Hawks vs Rockets     Hawks
    
          1979
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Sonics       Lakers
    
          1979
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Sonics         Sonics
    
          1979
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Spurs vs Wizards     Wizards

    6/8
    The 80's


    Code:
          1981
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bulls vs Knicks         Bulls
    
          1982
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bullets vs Nets        Bullets
    
          1984
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Knicks vs Pistons     Knicks
    
          1985
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Blazers vs Mavs        Blazers
    
          1985
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Celtics      Lakers
    
          1988
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Mavs vs Nuggets      Mavs
    
          1988
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Pistons vs Lakers     Lakers
    
          1989
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Pistons      Pistons


    The 90's


    7/16
    Code:
          1990
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Jazz            Suns
    
          1990
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Lakers         Suns
    
          1990
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    76'ers vs Bulls          Bulls
    
          1990
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Blazers        Blazers
    
          1993
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Cavs vs Bulls           Bulls
    
          1993
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Sonics vs Suns         Suns
    
          1993
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bulls vs Knicks         Bulls
    
          1994
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Knicks vs Bulls         Bulls
    
          1994
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Rockets       Rockets
    
          1994
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Knicks vs Rockets     Rockets
    
          1995
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bulls vs Hornets       Bulls
    
          1997
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Jazz vs Spurs           Jazz
    
          1998
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Hornets vs Hawks     Hawks
    
          1998
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Jazz          Jazz
    
          1999
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Pistons vs Hawks     Hawks
    
           1999
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Blazers vs Jazz        Blazers
    10/16
    The 2000's

    Code:
           2001
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Blazers vs Lakers     Lakers
    
           2001
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Kings vs Lakers        Lakers
    
           2002
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Magic vs Hornets      Hornets
    
           2002
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Celtics vs Pistons     Celtics
    
           2003
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Lakers vs Twolves     Lakers
    
           2003
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Nets vs Pistons        Nets
    
           2004
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Pistons vs Pacers      Pistons
    
           2004
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Pistons vs Lakers      Pistons
    
           2005
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Pacers vs Celtics      Pacers
    
           2005
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Spurs vs Suns          Spurs
    
           2007
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Spurs vs Suns          Spurs
    
           2007
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Bulls vs Pistons        Pistons
    
           2008
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Jazz vs Rockets        Jazz
    
           2008
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Suns vs Spurs          Spurs
    
           2010
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Spurs vs Mavs         Spurs
    
           2010
    (SRS)      (W-L)        RESULT
    Spurs vs Suns           Suns

    17/28
    Teams with Identical Records

    1954
    Celtics vs Nationals = SRS Prevails
    1955
    Nationals vs Pistons = SRS Fails
    1956
    Lakers vs Hawks = SRS Fails
    1957
    Lakers vs Pistons = SRS Prevails
    1957
    Lakers vs Hawks = SRS Prevails
    1958
    Royals vs Pistons = SRS Fails
    1975
    Celtics vs Bullets = SRS Prevails
    1976
    Braves vs 76'ers = SRS Prevails
    1977
    Spurs vs Celtics = SRS Fails
    1978
    Cavs vs Knicks = SRS Fails
    1979
    Lakers vs Nuggets = SRS Prevails
    1980
    Rockets vs Spurs = SRS Prevails
    1981
    Kings vs Rockets = SRS Prevails
    1981
    Celtics vs 76'ers = SRS Fails
    1982
    Suns vs Nuggets = SRS Prevails
    1990
    Blazers vs Pistons = SRS Fails
    1993
    Rockets vs Sonics = SRS Prevails
    1996
    Knicks vs Cavs = SRS Fails
    1998
    Spurs vs Suns = SRS Fails
    1998
    Lakers vs Sonics = SRS Prevails
    1998
    Jazz vs Bulls = SRS Prevails
    1999
    Lakers vs Rockets = SRS Prevails
    2000
    76'ers vs Hornets = SRS Fails
    2001
    Mavs vs Jazz = SRS Fails
    2002
    Lakers vs Spurs = SRS Prevails
    2003
    Spurs vs Mavs = SRS Fails
    2008
    Spurs vs Hornets = SRS Fails
    2010
    Jazz vs Nuggets = SRS Prevails



    Summary

    Out of 99 Playoff Series the team with the higher SRS won 58 times, considering HCA is suppose to be a heavy advantage this is a drastic figure. And we're not done yet, part2 of this installment will be to contextualize those scores by recognizing player availability and any other factors you guys feel will skew the results in one way or another. For example Ive excluded the Spurs vs Suns series of 2000 because Duncan was unavailable, to prevent bias this was the only series I excluded. Looking at the results however I found many such instances.

    So what say you, if you were going to Vegas what system would you trust?

    Good stuff here.

    But what I want to know is how is the team with the higher SRS that won 58 out of 99 series better than the team that had HCA out of those 99 series? I would bet the team with HCA wins 75-85% of the time.
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    Good stuff here.

    But what I want to know is how is the team with the higher SRS that won 58 out of 99 series better than the team that had HCA out of those 99 series? I would bet the team with HCA wins 75-85% of the time.
    Let it go JB, if the team with higher SRS won 58 times then it means the team with HCA lost 58 times out of 99, meaning they won 41 games good for a .41 winning%.


  5. #5
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    Interesting. I am unfamiliar with SRS though. I mean, I know what it stands for, but where do you find SRS data?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by daleja424 View Post
    Interesting. I am unfamiliar with SRS though. I mean, I know what it stands for, but where do you find SRS data?
    Do you mean how its calculated or where you can find the results? The results are posted on BBR in their league/team profiles.

    For an explanation on how the system works its here
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=39


  7. #7
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    sweet Chronz. thanks a ton.

  8. #8
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    This year,

    Bulls

    SRS: 6.75 (2nd of 30) ▪ Pace: 90.3 (23rd of 30)
    Expected W-L: 54-18 (1st of 30)

    Miami
    SRS: 6.81 (1st of 30) ▪ Pace: 91.0 (20th of 30)
    Expected W-L: 53-19 (2nd of 30)
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  9. #9
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    Teams that advanced despite having inferior SRS ratings:

    Hawks
    Thunder
    Grizzlies
    Mavericks

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Teams that advanced despite having inferior SRS ratings:

    Hawks
    Thunder
    Grizzlies
    Mavericks
    All but the Thunder had inferior win-loss records as well, but yes this has truly been the year for the under dog, atleast in the West.


  11. #11
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    500
    Great work Chronz
    [IMG]hi[/IMG]

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,195
    vCash
    1500
    My TOP 10 favorite NBA players of All Time

    1. Kobe Bryant
    2. Allen Iverson
    3. Reggie Miller
    4. Andrew Bynum
    5. Wilt Chamberlain
    6. Steve Nash
    7. Lamar Odom
    8. Ben Gordon
    9. Ray Allen
    10. Carmelo Anthony

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    HCA (Homecourt Advantage)
    Posts
    65,232
    vCash
    1500
    This needs to be updated because the Mavs beat both the Lakers and Heat with a lower Defensive and Offensive Rating and lower SRS rating.
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    HCA (Homecourt Advantage)
    Posts
    65,232
    vCash
    1500
    Hey Chronz where is part 2 of this?
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    31,662
    vCash
    1500
    Good question JB


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