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  1. #1
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    Does Paul Johnson's Scheme Hurt Georgia Tech?

    I'll preface this by saying I think Johnson is a good coach, and that the triple option is the most beautiful offense to watch when run right, in my opinion. That being said, I think that same triple option is going to sink Paul Johnson and GT. He's still playing with Chan Gailey's players, and I wonder if he will be able to pull the type of offensive recruits he needs to continue to compete in the ACC. Its quite obvious that GT is way down this year compared to last after losses to Kansas and NC State. Personally, I think the option is best utilized at schools that struggle to recruit (see Navy), and have inferior talent and competition. With big-time contributors like Dwyer slipping to the 6th round of the draft, I think you may see the major offensive recruits shy away from Georgia Tech. I honestly don't think Johnson will be the coach in 3 years. Thoughts?

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    It worked well when teams were unprepared for it, and it would catch teams off guard...now that several teams have shown how to stop it, it's easier to gameplan for. Most well disciplined defenses can completely shut down their offense.

    Not to mention, most lineman can time the snap based on the movement of the back pre-snap.

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    First, Dwyer slipped to the 6th because he came to the draft overweight and slow. He should have stayed in school for another year.

    Now with PJ, the option will be fine at GT. I mean the guy was tied for 1st in the Coastal in 08 and won the ACC in 09, his first two years. And this slow start is due to the defense, not his option. His defense can't stop a thing and unfortunately, the option is not designed to play from behind in games.

    But he has recruited some very good defense prospects in his first three years. GT is in great hands and GT should have a coach for a long time, unless someone snags him from a bigger school (although I don't think many schools would fancy having the option). But the option works great at GT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. October View Post
    First, Dwyer slipped to the 6th because he came to the draft overweight and slow. He should have stayed in school for another year.

    Now with PJ, the option will be fine at GT. I mean the guy was tied for 1st in the Coastal in 08 and won the ACC in 09, his first two years. And this slow start is due to the defense, not his option. His defense can't stop a thing and unfortunately, the option is not designed to play from behind in games.

    But he has recruited some very good defense prospects in his first three years. GT is in great hands and GT should have a coach for a long time, unless someone snags him from a bigger school (although I don't think many schools would fancy having the option). But the option works great at GT.
    Yeah, with Chan Gailey's players. Did you even read what I wrote? What good offensive players has he recruited? That was my point, he's not going to get offensive talent because everyone knows the scheme doesn't project to the NFL. Dwyer's weight wasn't the only reason he slipped, a big part of it was the fact that its difficult to evaluate players in a gimmicky offense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homestarunner93 View Post
    Yeah, with Chan Gailey's players. Did you even read what I wrote? What good offensive players has he recruited? That was my point, he's not going to get offensive talent because everyone knows the scheme doesn't project to the NFL. Dwyer's weight wasn't the only reason he slipped, a big part of it was the fact that its difficult to evaluate players in a gimmicky offense.
    Weight was the big reason. He was slow and overweight at the combines. I'm sure they questioned the ability to line up further back in a pro style offense, but NFL scouts question everything. They questioned Tebow's throwing mechanics, yet he was drafted in the 1st round. Dwyer's teammate, Demaryius Thomas was a first round pick even though he was a WR in the triple option. It shows that it doesn't matter the style you play in, if you're an athlete and have skill at your position, you can be a high draft pick.

    And some guys that came to GT after Johnson took over: Anthony Allen (transfer), BJ Bostic, Vad Lee, Stephen Hill, David Sims, Orwin Smith, Chris Milton, Airyan Willis, etc. Those are guys from the 09-11 classes only at the skill positions on offense too.

    I feel that calling the option a gimmicky offense is like calling the spread a gimmicky offense. Both are designed for deception that utilizes speed and misdirection. Both work though.
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    The option is unstoppable with the right QB and a big OL. Tom Osborne's version of the offense dominated college football for more than 25 years, and he sent a lot of players to the NFL. Paul Johnson needs time to develop his own players and he'll do just fine.

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    Personally I find the Wishbone, Flex and Wing T options to be very outdated. I really dont think you can use any of the above if you truly want to compete with the upper level D1 teams. The Spread Option seems more of the way to go in a situation using the option. When it comes to the option runs, Id personally stay away from the Triple Option cause it seems the double option is more successful but I guess if you have the right athletes either could be used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. October View Post
    Weight was the big reason. He was slow and overweight at the combines. I'm sure they questioned the ability to line up further back in a pro style offense, but NFL scouts question everything. They questioned Tebow's throwing mechanics, yet he was drafted in the 1st round. Dwyer's teammate, Demaryius Thomas was a first round pick even though he was a WR in the triple option. It shows that it doesn't matter the style you play in, if you're an athlete and have skill at your position, you can be a high draft pick.

    And some guys that came to GT after Johnson took over: Anthony Allen (transfer), BJ Bostic, Vad Lee, Stephen Hill, David Sims, Orwin Smith, Chris Milton, Airyan Willis, etc. Those are guys from the 09-11 classes only at the skill positions on offense too.

    I feel that calling the option a gimmicky offense is like calling the spread a gimmicky offense. Both are designed for deception that utilizes speed and misdirection. Both work though.

    The offense was just as big of a question mark on Dwyer, trust me, I do the rounds when it comes to the NFL Draft. Thomas shouldn't have been a first round pick, and certainly should not have been drafted over Dez Bryant. Denver just has one of the most foolish FOs in the league when it comes to the draft.


    And Bostic is the only one of those guys that was a 4-star recruit, and he's really better suited as a DB. That type of recruiting more than likely isn't going to cut it in the ACC.

    Are you really arguing the triple option isn't gimmicky? Really? There's like three or four teams in the whole nation that run it, and it utilizes motion and a heavy load of running the ball. I would say the spread option is gimmicky to an extent because it also utilizes a lot of motion. Really, the degree of the spread depends on who's running it. West Virginia, for example, runs a lot of option plays and things of that sort, but Clemson's spread is more of a pro-style approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homestarunner93 View Post
    The offense was just as big of a question mark on Dwyer, trust me, I do the rounds when it comes to the NFL Draft. Thomas shouldn't have been a first round pick, and certainly should not have been drafted over Dez Bryant. Denver just has one of the most foolish FOs in the league when it comes to the draft.


    And Bostic is the only one of those guys that was a 4-star recruit, and he's really better suited as a DB. That type of recruiting more than likely isn't going to cut it in the ACC.

    Are you really arguing the triple option isn't gimmicky? Really? There's like three or four teams in the whole nation that run it, and it utilizes motion and a heavy load of running the ball. I would say the spread option is gimmicky to an extent because it also utilizes a lot of motion. Really, the degree of the spread depends on who's running it. West Virginia, for example, runs a lot of option plays and things of that sort, but Clemson's spread is more of a pro-style approach.
    It used to be the most common offense in football, passing teams were gimmicky. More teams switched to the passing game to make up for a lack of size and talent. Old school football was all about running the ball, passing was an afterthought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homestarunner93 View Post
    The offense was just as big of a question mark on Dwyer, trust me, I do the rounds when it comes to the NFL Draft. Thomas shouldn't have been a first round pick, and certainly should not have been drafted over Dez Bryant. Denver just has one of the most foolish FOs in the league when it comes to the draft.


    And Bostic is the only one of those guys that was a 4-star recruit, and he's really better suited as a DB. That type of recruiting more than likely isn't going to cut it in the ACC.

    Are you really arguing the triple option isn't gimmicky? Really? There's like three or four teams in the whole nation that run it, and it utilizes motion and a heavy load of running the ball. I would say the spread option is gimmicky to an extent because it also utilizes a lot of motion. Really, the degree of the spread depends on who's running it. West Virginia, for example, runs a lot of option plays and things of that sort, but Clemson's spread is more of a pro-style approach.
    So you do the PSD NFL Draft and that makes you an expert on the players? Giving Todd McShay a run for his money now? Well I better watch out then.

    But, from what I heard and read, the biggest impact for his draft stock plummeting was from his weight/speed and the toe injury. And so far Thomas is playing as well if not better than Bryant. We'll see if that continues, but hard to arguer someone with Thomas' big play ability and less baggage.

    And you need to stop looking at stars when it comes to recruiting. Look at offer sheets. For instance, GT's recruit, David Sims is rated a 3 star ATH, ranked as the 40th best ATH and 18th best player in South Carolina. Yet, he had offers from UF, FSU, Oregon, USCe, Michigan, UT, UNC, NCSU to name a few. Offer sheets are a much better way to evaluate a player and even that isn't always a great way. All I know is that GT has recruited very good players under Johnson and he should have continued success.

    And the triple option isn't gimmicky. The only reason people say it is a gimmick is because other coaches don't implement it and the reason they don't is because it is hard to implement. Coaches would love to use it if they could use it properly, but it's difficult to do so. Johnson has orchestrated it perfectly everywhere he's been, even with players that were not his. Once he gets his players, watch out. What exactly makes it a gimmick to you?

    GT's problem is defense. They can't stop anyone right now. They just gave up 530 yards to NCSU.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. October View Post
    So you do the PSD NFL Draft and that makes you an expert on the players? Giving Todd McShay a run for his money now? Well I better watch out then.

    But, from what I heard and read, the biggest impact for his draft stock plummeting was from his weight/speed and the toe injury. And so far Thomas is playing as well if not better than Bryant. We'll see if that continues, but hard to arguer someone with Thomas' big play ability and less baggage.

    And you need to stop looking at stars when it comes to recruiting. Look at offer sheets. For instance, GT's recruit, David Sims is rated a 3 star ATH, ranked as the 40th best ATH and 18th best player in South Carolina. Yet, he had offers from UF, FSU, Oregon, USCe, Michigan, UT, UNC, NCSU to name a few. Offer sheets are a much better way to evaluate a player and even that isn't always a great way. All I know is that GT has recruited very good players under Johnson and he should have continued success.

    And the triple option isn't gimmicky. The only reason people say it is a gimmick is because other coaches don't implement it and the reason they don't is because it is hard to implement. Coaches would love to use it if they could use it properly, but it's difficult to do so. Johnson has orchestrated it perfectly everywhere he's been, even with players that were not his. Once he gets his players, watch out. What exactly makes it a gimmick to you?

    GT's problem is defense. They can't stop anyone right now. They just gave up 530 yards to NCSU.
    I don't know what the first part of the first statement is supposed to mean, but anyone can give Todd McShay a run for his money, he's a fool. He had Andre Woodson as a top 15 pick a couple years ago up until a month before the draft. McShay seriously has no clue what he's talking about, go back and review some of the things he says.

    Thomas wasn't necessarily a good prospect because they don't run real routes in the triple option, at least not routes that an NFL WR is going to run. Watch GT's WRs next time you get a chance.

    Stars are just as good as "offer sheets." Neither is a perfect method, but I don't see anyone Johnson recruited to the offense making an impact outside of Allen, if you even consider him a recruit.

    Oh, its totally a gimmick. It isn't that hard to implement as long as you have a QB who can run. That's why teams with inferior talent use it, the blocking schemes are complicated, but that's about it. The movement isn't hard to learn. Take it from someone who's football team ran an option offense for two years and played against at least two teams that also ran it. The triple option would be widely used if it was an offense that would be widely effective, but it isn't. Johnson wasn't a real threat at Navy, but conceivably he is at Georgia Tech. Teams have already figured out how to stop him though, and its showing this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homestarunner93 View Post
    I don't know what the first part of the first statement is supposed to mean, but anyone can give Todd McShay a run for his money, he's a fool. He had Andre Woodson as a top 15 pick a couple years ago up until a month before the draft. McShay seriously has no clue what he's talking about, go back and review some of the things he says.
    That was my point, but it was clearly lost on you. I consider you a draft expert as much as I consider McShay one.

    Thomas wasn't necessarily a good prospect because they don't run real routes in the triple option, at least not routes that an NFL WR is going to run. Watch GT's WRs next time you get a chance.
    You just proved my point. It didn't matter the system because Thomas had NFL talent, even as a WR in the triple option whose real responsibility was the deep threat. Stephen Hill is the new deep threat and he has pro potential.

    Stars are just as good as "offer sheets." Neither is a perfect method, but I don't see anyone Johnson recruited to the offense making an impact outside of Allen, if you even consider him a recruit.
    How are stars as good as offer sheets? I showed you a guy who was ranked 18th in his state and 40th at his position as a 3 star with offers from tons premiere schools. Recruiting sites don't have the manpower to carefully assess players outside of the top 50 really. There are so many great players that get lost in the system. I said that offer sheets are not a perfect way to assess the talent a player has, but it is a much better indicator than the star system. I trust your recruiting knowledge even less than your NFL draft knowledge.

    Oh, its totally a gimmick. It isn't that hard to implement as long as you have a QB who can run. That's why teams with inferior talent use it, the blocking schemes are complicated, but that's about it. The movement isn't hard to learn. Take it from someone who's football team ran an option offense for two years and played against at least two teams that also ran it. The triple option would be widely used if it was an offense that would be widely effective, but it isn't. Johnson wasn't a real threat at Navy, but conceivably he is at Georgia Tech. Teams have already figured out how to stop him though, and its showing this year.
    He wasn't a real threat at Navy? Have you ever followed Johnson before GT? You know that they went to bowl games from 03-07 for 4 consecutive years for the first time ever at Navy? And beat Notre Dame for the first time since WWII. He had at least 8 wins from 03-07. His offenses during 04-07 time ranked as 46, 20, 28 and 22. At GT his offenses have been 50, and 26. Pretty damn good for a running team. You are severely underrating Johnson as a coach especially since he uses "inferior" talent to win.

    You still haven't answer why its a gimmick offense. It works, so why is it gimmicky. It clearly works at all levels of CFB. The triple option was maximized at Nebraska in the 90s, but died out to the emergence of the spread, which was much easy to implement. But it doesn't mean that the triple option is a gimmick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. October View Post

    How are stars as good as offer sheets? I showed you a guy who was ranked 18th in his state and 40th at his position as a 3 star with offers from tons premiere schools. Recruiting sites don't have the manpower to carefully assess players outside of the top 50 really. There are so many great players that get lost in the system. I said that offer sheets are not a perfect way to assess the talent a player has, but it is a much better indicator than the star system. I trust your recruiting knowledge even less than your NFL draft knowledge.



    He wasn't a real threat at Navy? Have you ever followed Johnson before GT? You know that they went to bowl games from 03-07 for 4 consecutive years for the first time ever at Navy? And beat Notre Dame for the first time since WWII. He had at least 8 wins from 03-07. His offenses during 04-07 time ranked as 46, 20, 28 and 22. At GT his offenses have been 50, and 26. Pretty damn good for a running team. You are severely underrating Johnson as a coach especially since he uses "inferior" talent to win.

    You still haven't answer why its a gimmick offense. It works, so why is it gimmicky. It clearly works at all levels of CFB. The triple option was maximized at Nebraska in the 90s, but died out to the emergence of the spread, which was much easy to implement. But it doesn't mean that the triple option is a gimmick.
    Why wouldn't they be? Schools offer kids for a variety of reasons. Sometimes there are kids they wouldn't necessarily take, but they boost team GPA. Sometimes they throw away scholarships to a player's friend to get a stud to come to campus. Every school signs boom guys and every school signs bust guys, so I don't see how the quality of offer sheets is necessarily a great judge. I don't think stars are either, but oh well.

    By "threat," I meant he didn't have the talent or means to make a BCS Bowl or a National Championship game. Conceivably, that could happen (and in the case of a BCS Bowl, has) at Georgia Tech.


    Since when does an offense have to be ineffective to be considered gimmicky? That was a ridiculous statement. I already told you why its gimmicky, it utilizes motion and the QB in a non-traditional manner. The triple option isn't popular because its fairly easy to stop when its "in style." If that wasn't the case, more teams would utilize it, plain and simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homestarunner93 View Post
    Why wouldn't they be? Schools offer kids for a variety of reasons. Sometimes there are kids they wouldn't necessarily take, but they boost team GPA. Sometimes they throw away scholarships to a player's friend to get a stud to come to campus. Every school signs boom guys and every school signs bust guys, so I don't see how the quality of offer sheets is necessarily a great judge. I don't think stars are either, but oh well.
    Stars are ineffective because they try to rank kids who play on different levels in high school against different competition. It is almost impossible to rank those kids when they don't play against each other. The ranking works for those 5 stars because they're all on the circuit playing each in camps, competing all the time. But those 2-4 stars that are not always in the camps, it is impossible to correctly gauge those kids with precision needed to accurately determine their potential.

    A team like GT will not get many 5 stars. Hell most teams don't get 5 stars in general. They, like most teams make up their teams with 3-4 stars and some 2 stars. Rivals and Scout accurately gets the 5 stars right usually in their success at the next level, but fail miserably trying to project the other kids. It's not their fault either. It's too difficult to see film and kids at camps of schools.

    Coaches have a footprint area to recruit, so they watch these kids from 8th grade on and are able to project where a kid may end up in their program.

    You're argument for the various reasons why coaches offer is negligible at best. I have never heard of kids being offered at D-1 programs to boost their GPA. I've heard rumors of kids being offered to get another teammate, but I think that is almost too rare to really believe. This is because its a very dangerous situation to do so. Taking a recruit for hopes of getting his teammate can easily backfire.

    By "threat," I meant he didn't have the talent or means to make a BCS Bowl or a National Championship game. Conceivably, that could happen (and in the case of a BCS Bowl, has) at Georgia Tech.
    So your expectations have Navy as a BCS title contender to be a threat? So is Clemson not a threat because they have never been in a BCS bowl, let alone the championship game? Sorry for the jab, but had to throw it there.

    Since when does an offense have to be ineffective to be considered gimmicky? That was a ridiculous statement. I already told you why its gimmicky, it utilizes motion and the QB in a non-traditional manner. The triple option isn't popular because its fairly easy to stop when its "in style." If that wasn't the case, more teams would utilize it, plain and simple.
    Ah so your in the class that believes that since other coaches aren't using it, then it must be a joke. Nebraska built a powerhouse out of it. The triple option faded out due to the desire to have a 6'4" 225 QB with a rocket arm ala Peyton Manning in which passing was the name to the game. But with the rise of dual threat QB, we're seeing more option attacks and may see more triple options.

    If the triple option is so easy to stop then why have coaches failed to do so thus far in Johnson's coaching career? I just think you feel its not a sexy offense and therefore don't take it seriously, even though it is one of the most effective offenses out there with high success rate and low risk.

    Hell the spread option utilizes motion and the QB in a non traditional manner. With wildcat offenses, you see this all the time in the spread. Does that mean Alabama was using a gimmicky offense against Arkansas for having the RB taking direct snaps?
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